SG
A lot of people are wondering whether they should seek a CFA in place of the more traditional MBA. In large part, the answer depends on your focus.
The Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) designation has been enjoying a heightened profile and increased popularity in light of surging private equity activity. So far In 2007 – the program’s 44th year – 140,000 people from 156 countries have registered to sit for the three exams that determine, in part, whether one is permitted to tag those three letters at the end of their signature.
A lot of people are wondering whether they should seek a CFA in place of the more traditional MBA. Which will get them ahead? Which will make them more marketable? Which will attract a bigger compensation package?
Whether you should seek a CFA, an MBA, or both has everything to do you’re your professional goals, says Joshua Wimberley, a client partner in recruiter Korn/Ferry’s financial officers practice. Simply put, if your goals include anything but asset management, a CFA isn’t for you.
Focus on Asset Management
“The CFA is of huge importance in the asset management industry,” Wimberley explains. “An MBA is more for investment banking or business in general. It’s the standard educational background on Wall Street. If you want to go into investment banking, there is no need for a CFA. It’s really comparing apples and oranges.”
In short, the CFA gives you the technical skills to succeed in investment management, while an MBA prepares you for a broad range of challenges in the business world. Even for those dedicated to investment management, the big-picture business know-how an MBA affords can propel your career and earnings.
Even executives with the CFA Institute encourage an MBA for those seeking their designation. Bob Johnson, managing director of the CFAI’s education division, says the MBA and CFA are “complimentary, not competitive” designations. “I do realize people have a limited amount of time and need to prioritize what educational opportunities they avail themselves of,” says Johnson. “For a young person who is preparing for a career in investment management, both educational opportunities are something they should consider.”
‘The Ideal Career Path’
Johnson lays out what he considers an ideal career path for a recent college grad committed to asset management: Enter the CFA program while working full-time. With the work experience and the CFA designation, enter a MBA program – also while working. “Think about it,” he says. “You are 28, 29 years old with both a CFA and an MBA and six years of work experience.” In addition, he notes, “most employers in the investment management business will subsidize the cost of a CFA program and an MBA.”
Meanwhile, Korn/Ferry’s Wimberley believes a junior-level asset management professional with a CFA alone should succeed. “If you’re talented and a high performer and all you want to do is asset management, I would say get an CFA,” he says, adding that the treasurers of many Fortune 1,000 companies, CFOs and controllers have Level 3 CFAs only.
To those who suggest the CFA is replacing the MBA, Dave Wilson, president and CEO of the Graduate Management Admission Council, says: “Not a chance.” The CFA charter produces “first-class analysts,” he says, but an MBA covers the fundamentals of business relevant to every type of organization, from entrepreneurial start-ups, to multinational corporations, not-for-profits, and government agencies. “An MBA prepares someone to work within an organization as it relates to margins, strategy, mission, marketing and human resource issues,” he says. “That will always make the MBA a relevant degree.”
The Costs
When it comes to the nitty-gritty, there are big differences in each designation. For one thing, the price difference is significant: CFA enrollment and exam fees are $2,200, compared to the more than $100,000 an MBA from a top school can cost. It takes a minimum of three years of coursework – at least 250 hours of self-guided study – before one can sit for the six-hour CFA exam. A typical MBA program, attended full-time, takes two years.
The CFAI limits the number of charters they grant yearly – in 2005 and 2006, 5,752 and 10,045 charters were awarded, respectively. (In 2005, 80,000 people sat for the CFA. In 2006, 91,000 people sat.) Today, the institute has nearly 78,000 members worldwide, with the numbers of registered applicants ballooning in India, China and Hong Kong.
this article is misleading. The CFA is comprised of three exams, not one, and a typical candidate will fail at least one of the three before completing the process.
I did reword to clarify, but we didn’t mean to imply this is an easy designation to get.
As a holder of both I can unequivically say that the CFA is far more comprehensive/difficult and relevant than an MBA. Not sure I understand how the CFA is less relevant to investment banking; don’t both analysts and investment bankers claim to be arbiters of value? Does corp. fin 101 prepare one for i-banking? Surely you can’t be arguing that hashing out a few case studies somehow gives a ubiquitious MBAer greater insight into determining strategic direction of a co. or the appropriate discount rate for a DCF? If that is the argument, might I suggest VALUATION website and subscribing to the HBR. A savings of just $99,800.
The article should be really be about the dicotomy between the value proposition of an MBA and what amounts to a low ROI (intangiblly speaking). CFA teaches you hard skills and tests you on them. MBA teaches you soft skills. That does make them complimentary. Yet, make no mistake, the CFA prepares you for any capital markets challenge. An MBA does not. MBAs are about networks, rear view debating and getting past the gatekeeper. For reasons unknown, MBA still garner pull from the majors, despite the degree’s inherent and growing irrelevance
Can you elaborate on the statment that the “CFA limits the numbers of charters annually”? I thought those passing Level III with the required work experience and recommendations were awarded the charter? What do you mean by limits? What are the limits?
As a novice in the field of IB, I have a question. I currently teach 5 grade math/sci. and will be graduating with an MBA from a mid B school this summer. Considering the fact that I have no experience in corporate finance (only 13 years in travel and 2 in education), would you advise me to go after a CFA if my goal is to enter the risk job market or should I pursue an emphasis in stats?
The distinction between CFA as a professional degree and MBA as a University degree has to be made.
There are way too many variable aside from the 2 degrees mentioned that will put you on the right career path or give you a bigger salary or faster promotion.
As a holder of both for the past 1.5 year and a half of my career I have not been able to penetrate the asset management industry even with the 2 degrees. I’m still sit stuck in middle office in an I-Bank. There are way too many other variables that come into the picture aside from the CFA and a MBA. I would put a disclosure that the story described above applies only for any new graduate coming out of the top 10 undergrad Universities or the Ivy MBA programs.
For a person in IT trying to make a move to asset management, is CFA better or an MBA? Is either of the two a golden ticket that gets your foot in the door? I have passed level I of the CFA and am writing level II in June this year. If I can’t make a career switch by the end of this year, I’ll consider an MBA.
Any comments will be much appreciated.
I run a L/S equity hedge fund in CT and I too am a CFA Charter Holder and a possess an MBA. Let me be the first one to say that CFA is over rated. It used to be something that I was proud to have gone through and obtain. But recently as the article has stated, the number of CFA candidates that have registered to sit for the exams and the quality of the candidates says something about the program. I feel the CFA Institute is accepting anyone and everyone who wants to pony up the registration fee. One great example is my child’s violin teacher who is siting for the level 2 exam this June. Violin teacher? She has ZERO financial industry experience. When I sat for the exams, I needed 3 recommendations from CFA charter holders and at least 3 years of financial industry experience before I was allowed to sit for the exam. Now I have my settlements and back office personnel at my work sitting for CFA designations. What possible use can they have for the CFA settling my trades? To be honest, after June, they will need to start looking for new job. I feel the CFA designation is not as important as it used to be ever since the CFA Institute eased the requirements to sit for the exam.
The CFA designation is relevant not solely for asset management, but is also for sell-side research positions. It is mandatory for most senior analysts in equity research departments, and fixed-income research is moving in that direction as well. (I agree that the CFA is of no great value for other departments within Wall Street, such as investment banking.)
It is interesting to hear that the CFA lacks it’s importance of antiquity because the CFA Institute has eased the requirements to sit for the exam. This designation indicates that the Charterholder has completed three exams, has the requisite work experience, and has met the CFAI’s other requirements. It demonstrates that the holder has a certain level of education, that’s it! While it is rather dismaying to hear this relic claim (much like my child when he touts that he discovered a new fashion before it was “cool”) that the CFA charter no longer has importance because of the entrance requirements, it is heartening to know if this dinosaur who probably couldn’t even spell doctorate can manage a fund, there is hope for the incoming candidates.
bottom line, the best i banking jobs and asset management jobs go to those out of top 10 mba schools… having said that, you can still succeed if you get mba and cfa, work hard, get a good mentor and are in the right place at the right time…. my recommendation is get both… but understand that it gurantees them something. People in back office jobs and settlement think that if they get both its their golden ticket. It is not. Your firm has to be growing, and have the culture to promote from with.
While both designations hold their own respective cache’ the overlooked benefit of the MBA is the contacts and networking that comes from attending class at a graduate level as opposed to a CFA self study program. I hold both designations and find myself interracting professionally more with former classmates, than the random acquaintance at a CFA study group. I’m sure there are exceptions, but the old adage “it’s who you know, not what you know” still has relevance.
Not all MBAs are created equal. A top 10 program is definitely more valuable than the community college or online MBA. All CFAs are created equal because of three 6 hour exams, 4 years of relevant financial experience. A CFA is more like a “good” Top 20 MBA in terms of prestige but not necessarily a Harvard, Stanford, etc.
http://www0.gsb.columbia.edu/null?&exclusive=filemgr.download&file_id=64379
It is worth reading Dean Hubbard’s take on the 21st century MBA – Sadly I must agree with Annita Roddick. Read it.
The CFA has lost its shine in the past few years. Most of the people pursuing it these days can’t make it higher wherever they are, and think that CFA will open new doors for them. THATS SIMPLY NOT HOW IT WORKS!
Nothing beats a top 20 MBA in terms of networking and career advancements.
I dont understand where its coming from that CFA = MBA in prestige terms? Must be from those with BBA from unknown schools and a CFA thinking that.
This must be like a cold shower for you, but lately if someone if pursuing the CFA spells somewhat of a “looser” for the top hedge funds and I-banks.
I dont know what hedge fund you work for but where i work, people are EXPECTED to develop however possible, even by taking art classes. It creates character. Sorry to hear you work for a sad sad place.
Observer: Please learn to use proper spelling and grammar! Wow, your spelling is atrocious!
It has been my experience that CFA charterholders are FAR more diligent and knowledgable about finance, economics and investments than MBA holders, even from top 10 business schools. The MBA in finance provides good INTRODUCTORY training in finacial theory, but it is mainly used for networking. CFA program better provides the tools for canditates to produce creative solutions for complex financial problems.
Furthermore, a growing number of prestigious business schools, such as Oxford’s Said Business School, London Business School, HEC Paris, UNC, among others, have included approximately 70% of the CFA curriculum in their graduate programs (http://www.cfainstitute.org/cfaprog/university/partners.html). If anything, the CFA charter is becoming MORE prestigious.
Having mentioned all of this, if you are interested in trading, asset management (INCLUDING at Hedge Funds companies), risk management, quantitative analysis and research, it is best to have a combination of a MS/MA from a top school AND a CFA designation. An MBA is still a useful degree to have, but in the fields I have just mentioned, it is no match to the CFA designation!!!!!!
All the best,
Exp’d Trader
I agree, it is whom you know rather what you know. However, in my opinion, MBA even from a good school does not teach or train you much in financesuch as valuation, hedging, structuring etc… I graduated from U of MI and got CFA Level 1 recently. I met a guy from Haravard and in his opinion,it does not add much value in the asset management/private equity/venture capital etc unless you know the valuation models, strategic moves, capital structure, corp. finance. I believe CFA gives more in depth knowledge of Corp. Finanace, Valuation, Asset Management from a financial perceptive rather than from a startegic perceptive. Moreover, normally we work in a team of different people with different talents and this team makes the success not the individual. Both MBA and CFA are complimentry.
Are they complimentry?
What are the potential career opportunities for a MBA and Level 1? I am a late starter, 34 years, got MBA in 2005 from Uni. Michigan and got Level 1 in 2006.
If the violin teacher has more strategic decision making skills than a CFA, he can be excel in IB, PE,VC.
I disagree with the comments from the L/S equity manager. CFA has actually been made harder over the years and although the number of people sitting the exam may have increased it nevertheless does not make the qualification any less worthy. Since the majority of those who start the CFA rarely end up with the charter it goes to show that the qualification is certainly not an easy one to obtain. The CFA proves a level of dedication to your profession given that the number of hours study (3 x 250 hours) required on top of an already fairly time demanding career. Unfortunately having the CFA will not give you a foot in the door, only experience in the profession will do that and once you are in a middle office role it is very hard to break out of the mould. Networking is usually the best way to enter the asset management profession from another career path. To be perfectly honest it is only worth getting this qualification if you are dedicated to asset management industry as by the time you reach the last level you are dealing entirely with a focus on portfolio management. I do not have an MBA but some of the soft business skills it develops can be learnt “on the job”.
Yes…that’s why it says a MINIMUM of three years, so that mean it could take longer. Infact it could take as short as 2.5 years if you figure you take Level 1 in Dec and then level 2 the following june and then level 3 the year after. Ofcourse you have to pass in the first attempt!
Wouldn’t it be nice if we all knew exactly what we wanted to do by age 18, graduated with honors from an Ivy League school, got the requisite 3 years of I-Banking experience and then an MBA from a top 10 school?
Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way. Yale, Harvard, Stanford and the like haven’t cornered the market on smart, hardworking people just yet. Everyone’s got an opinion but in the end you’ve got to make up your own mind.
I’ve had a less than fulfilling financial career up to this point but it isn’t stopping me from studying for the CFA and forging ahead.
Embrace your inner Howard Roark and do what you want, I say.
Nothing would beat having a top 10 MBA and a CFA if you’re in any finance field. But I’m assuming most people can do one or the other.
There is no substitute for a top 10 B-school. I’m not saying that is the way it should be but the 45 year old fund manager or banking MD thinks if you got into the likes of Columbia you’re smart enough for most finance jobs (barring specialist ones like derivatives structuring). If a top 10 B-school is not an option, then the next question is do you want to be in asset management? If YES, get a CFA instead of a so-so MBA. If NO or NOT SURE, get an MBA – hopefully from a top 25. Let me emphasize that the CFA is a LOT of work, and it is especially difficult to knock the exams out 3 years in a row if you have a demanding job that requires a 60 hour work week or more. So, i recommend it only if you want to be in asset management and can’t do a top 10 MBA.
Wimberley’s reference to Level 3 CFA’s is misleading also. Anyone who has sat for the CFA will tell you that you either get the CFA designation or you don’t. There is no Level 1, 2 or 3 CFA.
On the MBA v CFA question, while I respect those with MBA’s, you have to place a high degree of value on those people who make the commitment to study, on their own time, particularly those who hold full time ‘professional’ jobs as well. If all I had to do with my time was go to class and be lectured by Ivy League professors that would be a piece of cake..
The quality of the candidate will always shine through if you ask me.
I guess a CFA charter is much more valuable to a person from a non-target business school, then to one from an Ivy league. I truly agree to the fact that the CFA curriculum is very comprehensive, and gives a taste of most of the financial world, but again, the MBA programs these days are designed in a similar way as well. You get a choice of selecting such courses which would give you more quantitative and analytical knowledge, and you can even choose those which hones your Investment Banking skills. And if you manage to choose the right mix of each, you get a chance to develop and hone each of those skills.
But as I mentioned, if you are from a non-target business school, you need something like a CFA charter to make in-roads through the HR department/recruiters to the Hiring managers. Once you get an interview, it all comes down to the knowledge and skills you have . But by saying this, I think that if a hiring manager would have a choice between two equally knowledgeable candidates, and one is an MBA and the other a CFA/MBA+CFA, (s)he would choose the latter just because of the brand recognition of the CFA charter.
Wimberley’s reference to Level 3 CFA’s is misleading also. Anyone who has sat for the CFA will tell you that you either get the CFA designation or you don’t. There is no Level 1, 2 or 3 CFA.
On the MBA v CFA question, while I respect those with MBA’s, you have to place a high degree of value on those people who make the commitment to study, on their own time, particularly those who hold full time ‘professional’ jobs as well. If all I had to do with my time was go to class and be lectured by Ivy League professors that would be a piece of cake..
The quality of the candidate will always shine through if you ask me.
MBA is good for those sales people on wall street willing to sell anything to retire as early as possible. The CFA on the other hand has way more top investors working to make people money and not money with people. Look at Buffett; he dropped out of his MBA program because he felt it wasn’t serving his career as an investment manager. If you are serious about investing, forget about the MBA and start studying for the CFA and read as many 10-Ks as you can…
Hello Jon,
I have been searching recently for a new position in NYC. With my background, I am in contention for positions in research, which I have worked previously, and yes, a CFA is usually mentioned in the posting.
CAREER CHANGER = GO FOR MBA
ALREADY IN BUY/SELL SIDE JOB = GO FOR CFA
To get a good buy/sell side job in 5 yrs = MS in Quant Finance
Moving on to a more interesting topic = priceless
Good luck to all going for the CFA as I know it is brutal to do while working. I hope despite some of the negative comments that it helps you. As for the MBA, from one who has studied business I think it so over rated. It justs make changing careers more feasible. As a Columbia grad said it is a $100k for an interview. I have worked in marketing in asset management for six years. I have read countless bios of analysts and portfolio managers and many of the older portfolio managers do not have either the top 10 MBA or CFAs and produce strong results and build substantial assets for their clients. I have especially seen this in the high net worth area. I have also seen people with top credentials underperform in their funds and are forced out. Does anyone ever stop to wonder if all of this frenzy is always the set formula to top performance. I think asset management and finance in a competitive city will always be a haven for Type A people who will want to get more education and credentials. I worked for a substantial firm with billions in assets started by a guy who did not finish college. The concept of buy low and sell high is not that hard to grasp and I don’t have either.
Thank you. Finally some some common sense. For anyone else reading this page who’s worried that no consensus has been achieved – two things: First, please take a step back from the argument and realize that the schools that these folks refer to educate a small percentage of the people in the relevant industries. Second, there will never be consensus. Neither combination nor a single degree is right for everyone.
Both degrees are useful. Being aware of where you truly are in your career and avoiding steps that will land you in places you don’t want to go (several people have mentioned the middle office), will help you determine exactly what you need to do to keep moving (CFA vs. MBA, or both). Awareness of what your ambitions really are, and learning about the skills developed by each degree – not a formula or a tradition – will help you make the right decision.
It’s incumbent upon the you to always be thinking about where you want to go and what you do and don’t already have to get you there.
I’m an MBA student and I couldn’t agree with you more. I see a lot of classmates complain about their life outside of the full-time MBA curriculum. They don’t know how easy they’ve got it since they don’t have demanding professional careers.
I’m a full-time MPP (Public Policy)-MBA dual candidate, and I work full time and, thus, have made a lot of sacrifices to get through these semesters (4 of 6 so far) with high marks.
If all I had to do is go to class and be lectured (not by Ivy League professors, though that would be nice), my graduate study would be a piece of cake, too.
The CFA can be easily gained….its more a test of how much time you can commit… I never read the readings but concentrated on the schweyser notes and old exams..after 4 months of diligent study, if you have a half a clue you should be able to pass the exams… but do understand diligent study is needed. after all, 70% is passing.. Getting a 70% in an MBA program isn’t all that impressive. Unfortuantely, MBA finace classes can be very theoretical. But will a CFA class or program teach you how to build models, analyze strategy, understand management… that’s why you probably need both…. as much as it pains me to say this.. if i had to choose in order… MBA top 10, MBA non top 20 + CFA, CFA, so so non top 25 mba would be the way to go if you want to break into asset management.
Soft factors like politics are many times underestimated. I have just advised on a major acquisition and we could triple shareholder’s value within one year by replacing an incompetent management.
I really like R’s (Asset Management) comment on the arguments. I truly believe that school and academia does not really matter, the stories of Buffet, Gates, and others show us that. At the end of the day whether you are a rainmaker, or not, really depends on your inherent skills and talents, and if you don’t have them, I don’t know where they can teach you those. Unfortunately, not everyone is born with the family connections, and most of us have to somehow earn our right to get that interview or job offer. And if a CFA candidancy is the way to go, we will do what it takes. If someone thinks otherwise, I will ask “What happened to the poor, smart, and hungry attitude that this country is all about?” Are the rich boys affraid of us because we are smarter and thus try to minimize the importance of the CFA because they can’t earn one? That’s the sentiment that I detect. I by the way am a Level 2 candidate.
If you have an MBA in Finance from a top finance oriented B-school (ex. Wharton; U of Chicago; Columbia), then a CFA is not necessary. If you do decide to get a CFA, and you already have a MBA from a top finance program, then you will find the CFA exam very easy and wonder why you ever bothered with it.
tj, what if you are not lucky enough to go to a top finance oriented MBA program, even though you are not lacking the academic aptitude necessary for being successful in one. I ,for example, lack the necessary work experience to be accepted to one because I just finished college. But I know where I want to take my career at the moment. Isn’t a CFA program enrollment the best option for me at the moment? And 2-3 more years maybe I will be able to go to a top MBA, I think I shouldn’t have a problem to be accepted with a 720 GMAT score… Let me know of your opinion, looks like you are more experienced than I
10 yrs ago i would say go get the CFA, now its a waste of time. quality of people sitting for exams has deteriorated tremendously. seems like all of these loosers post here trying to tell you to get it..
tj, I wonder how much finance you can learn during a two year MBA program even if it is from a top school(in addition to the other subjects).
IB, u need an MBA. But how do u know what valuation model that you should use to value a company, if you don’t have a through understanding. Do the top schools teach the different valuation models? Do they show the imporatnce and methods to restate the financial statement? Do they show how can you develop factor portfolios? Do they show how can u hedge a tracking portfolio? ….just curious.
nothing to worry guys , these cfa guys are nothing at all if u r already in a job and enjoying gud pay but otherwsie it is helpful if u r trying to gety into the finance field simply.
its said that u earn say 10 %more than mba huh thats not a lot lol.by the way i m an accountant nd will be enjoying more than any cfa.
thx
ye u dont need any thing if u r alreday in job unless u expect any change in slary which is not an issue at all always for most of time.
25 y/o L3 candidate here. value has been diluted due to amount of people taking it. it’s not a hard exam if you put in the time. it does cover a lot a mile wide but an inch deep. agree with the part about if you’re still young it doesn’t hurt to do the charter and go to bschool p-t esp. if your firm pays for it.
Half the people commenting on this thread can’t even spell or write good english…CFA won’t help that…. someone tell the “looser” how to actually spell the word.
People want to equallize the CFA with an MBA because its cheaper, less time commitment and they can study in the own living room. A CFA will never be a substitute for a top MBA. It is a compliment to hard work, being with a good program, getting a break and making the most of opportunity when it presents itself.
Your comments make no cents! Please use spell check and communicate in complete sentences. And for everyone else, please cease all communications in “texting” format, it is very unprofessional. What happened to proper grammar and typing out the letters “y-o-u” instead of “u”. People grow up!!! And no, I am not 40 or 50 something, I am a young professional just like you and I believe in speaking proper english and not ‘verizonese’.
Bottom line looking at all the comments I have reached to no conclusion of mine. Just found some interesting point of views and some that should be deleted.
Personally I feel MBA gives you a prestigious brand name to market your self with. CFA shows how committed you are to a career in finance (i.e. Asset Management).
For recent graduates like my self with an average profile (i.e. B.Sc. EE with GPA 3.0, 8 months of IT ex. as a generic BA) will not get me in to top 10 MBA programs. Hence an investment of $3000 and 3 years to study for CFA and work ex. is necessary to get in to the top MBA programs.
My unknown MBA (from top 800 school) + my 8 years working IB and corporate finance has given me experience to be in good position to pass the CFA. What I prefer is a refresher exec program and/or buy books and read them. My parents came to this country with no money in their pockets. I had no idea what a top 10 MBA was until after I did my top 800 MBA. I was king of naïvété. I did not know what a CFA truly was until last year. Now I am working in corporate development (Fortune 75) after years in M&A, and making about 150K in Chicago (a lot cheaper than NY). I grew up poor and had the choice between mediocre MBA or nothing. CFA certification is just a benchmark. What is more important is your parents as role models (mine still don’t understand what I do), having a father in M&A is perfect. Top 10 MBA is perfect. Networking is controlled by these people. I won’t settle for back or middle office, I prefer to be a windsurfing instructor in Corsica. I just want to reach my potential, and having a CFA does not guarantee that. It’s all about connections, and who you know. Take it from a poorboy who has come from nothing, still not satisfied, but looking at non-traditional ways forward!
Yes they do teach it. I have only an MBA and I am at least as good as or better than CFAs in my group. No disrespect to CFAs, it takes some dtermination. But MBA takes lot more than that, it takes determination, more than 250 x 3 hours of study and some guts to invest your life time earning and sacrifice your two years earnings. You want to compare CFA with MBA. OK do it.
There are competitive MBA programs that are geared towards producing capital markets professionals (akin to the preparation a CFA designation affords). What an MBA does is it allows an individual to strengthen his network and learn other broad business theory and management skills. A CFA doesn’t prepare someone to manage a group of distinct individuals or provide an experience to diagnose a problem, create a strategy to solve it and motivate team members to contribute (like case study).
I am a NYC Hedge fund manager. Clearly, if someone does not have a top five ivy degree, they definately should not be at a hedge fund, and they certainly have no place in the investment banking/private equity area either. The top MBA programs do a reasonable job of sifting out the rabble. If some guy is dumb enough to spend two and a half or three years of his life with his nose in a book, he may be competent enough to organize my files. I would take daddys pride with a Ph.D in physics from M.I.T. over some poor shmuck who thinks he knows something because he passed what are essentially three multiple choice tests. Of course every industry needs bottom feeders, so it is welcoming to hear that CFA enrollment is up.
only reason CFA enrollment is up is because you have a bunch of daytraders taking it now, thinking it will open new doors….
I dont think so, someone mentioned this before the quality of test takers has declined tremendously in the past few years.
CFA IS A WASTE OF YOUR TIME.
Very well said BT W.
true it may not open doors but it certainly doesn’t hurt to have it. it doesn’t take 3 whole years to study for either. out of the year, april and may are the only months I study and i’ve closed deals in may in both years while studyin for L1 and L2, and maybe this year as well for L3.
my firm has paid for everything and given me bonuses for passing so can’t say it’s been a waste of money or time.
true it may not open doors but it certainly doesn’t hurt to have it. it doesn’t take 3 whole years to study for either. out of the year, april and may are the only months I study and i’ve closed deals in may in both years while studyin for L1 and L2, and maybe this year as well for L3.
my firm has paid for everything and given me bonuses for passing so can’t say it’s been a waste of money or time.
Hi guys, I’m a lowly salesman taking my CFA to increase my knowledge base for my clients. I’m not a very sophisticated guy like all of you. Although I clear 7 figures in a bad year, I’m still only a salesperson when you get down to it. I’m not very smart, but guess what. I make more than most investment bankers, lawyers, hedge fund managers, etc. Did if forget to mention that I can take a day off without requesting it a month in advance. Oh and by the way, It’s not unusual to find me on the golf course at 11.
Again, I’m not that smart. The way that I look at it is I can always hire some overly eager Harvard grad who wears his ambition on his sleeve to manage my money.
I came to this blog because I am taking my CFA exams. Watching you people argue about CFA vs MBA is like watching a bunch of chickens claw at eachother.
As someone with an MBA from top 5 and cfa, I can tell you the cfa is grueling, easily comparable to challange of getting MBA, which is pretty much limited to getting accepted to the program. Anyone that would disparage an organization/charter designed to advance their profession in terms of education and ethics is shortsighted to say the least. As a charterholder you don’t just have the ‘cfa’ after your name, you are invited to seminars and receive regular periodicals, such as the Financial Analysts Journal–where much of the latest in academic financial research published.
If you have a CFA and an MBA and can not break into the asset management industry, I would be very concerned if I were you. I have worked in the industry for 6 years ….so I feel comfortable in saying there must be something fundamentally wrong with your attitude, or motivation. There are tens of thousands of jobs out there….surely you can get one of them. Try any one of a million hedge funds around.
My friend, if you made a 7 figure salary you would have no need to be doing the CFA….and if you are as dumb as you say you are(which I believe you are)then you will never pass the CFA.
How many of the CFAs out there could get into a top 5 MBA program? 1%, 5%, maybe??
nothing beats a top 5 MBA, if you got your BBA at Middle East USA State, then go for the MBA, you need all the help you can get.
The CFA is a great accomplishment and displays a recognized intelligence as well as devotion of time and effort. It serves as perhaps the only viable credential facilitating right of passage to get into most if not all firms. I ponder at the actions of Buffet (not the restaurant style) dropping out in mid pursuit of his MBA, stating it would not help his career.
I believe just as the mutual funds were marketed in the 80′s so has the CFA too
become a vibrant engine for marketing asset managers and analyst. Getting back to the aforementioned: (Buffet and lack of an MBA) So if investment performance is predicated on finding a certain candidate with either of these criteria’s how is it that most if not all funds under perform the indices. The street has become dependent on marketing tools that have proven saleable but have very little utility from a practical matter improving the outcomes of returns.
In his words one of Buffets Co-Pilots writes: Referencing investment management: “But a huge majority of people have some other crazy construct in their heads and instead of waiting for a near cinch and loading up, they apparently ascribe to the theory if they work a little harder
Hey there Anonymous, Asset Management; perhaps with your utilitarian veiw of education, you can not grasp the idea of education for its own sake. Your response is merely a symptomatic of a larger issue, in America, education is viewed as a means to create a better worker. K-College, we train our people to be better tools. Anonymous, as dumb as you believe I am, I assure you, I would run intellectual circles around you. You approach me not unlike a court jester approaching a king. Know your place and hide your envy because mine (AUM) is bigger than yours.
By the way, I do not make a 7 figure salary, I recieve my income in commissions. Again, as much income as I have coming in, I feel that I could increase my knowledge of my craft. The CFA is an fine self study education.
Anonymous, Asset Management, the next time you crawl into your tiny apartment and try to impugn a stranger’s character with your witless remarks, remember, you have been raised to be a tool, and you continue to act like a tool. :)
The CFA is a great accomplishment and displays a recognized intelligence. It serves as perhaps the only viable credential facilitating right of passage. I ponder why did Buffet (not the restaurant style) drop out mid pursuit of his MBA, stating it would not help his career.
The street has become dependent on marketing tools that have proven saleable but have very little utility from a practical matter improving the outcomes of returns. Reminiscent of the mutual funds marketed in the 80′s the CFA become a vibrant engine for marketing managers and analyst. Getting back to the aforementioned: (Buffet) is investment performance predicated on finding a certain candidate? Why do most funds perform the indices?
A Buffet Co-Pilots writes: “But a huge majority of people have some other crazy construct in their heads and instead of waiting for a near cinch and loading up, they apparently ascribe to the theory if they work a little harder or hire more business school students, they’ll come to know everything all the time.” Want an answer?. On the outside w/ these ranges of returns: 3-funds: 371% for 4 years, 484% for 7 years and 265% for 7 years.
Looking in Boardwalk97@Aol.Com
CFA chartholders outearn their MBA counterparts….
go to http://www.cfainstitute.org/aboutus/press/survey/pdf/CompSurveyUS.pdf
Hello, I am a Croatian guy with an MBA (not top-anything, it’s from Faculty of Economics in Zagreb, Croatia), and considering involving into CFA tests. I am interested in doing it because I like to learn and hope that it will help me become better investor and financial analyst, and not because I want to change my career (I am not in the financial industry, which raises a question can I satisfy the financial industry work experience prerequisite for getting the CFA charter?). Do my rationale sounds reasonable or not?
As a junior sales (3y working – 25y/o), I make more money than the average of the top 5 MBA (2x)… That does not make me stop thinking about either taking the CFA or an MBA.
Probably in 10y, I could be able to retire but that is not what I expect from life. I will be taking CFA Level I next December, and after CFA completion I will go for a top 5 MBA and switch to a sector where I will probably be making of my pre-enrolment year bonus…
WE ARE ALL IN DIFFERENT SITUATIONS… Life is not only about money but about satisfaction.
Best Regards,
SS
If you can get into a top 20 MBA school, then go for it regardless. If you want to be in asset management and can’t get into a top 20 MBA program, try to obtain your CFA. Then, if you want to go back to school, an MBA program that you got rejected from originally might accept you. A CFA gives you broad knowledge that will help your career whether or not you get your MBA.
Lowly salesman:
How does one get a position like yours that makes a 7 figure income? Are you unique amongst your peers?
Wow! Call me bored, I checked out everyone’s blog, and I’ll sum it all up as pretty good commentary interwoven with the barking banter of Neocon Wall Streeters. Seems like everyone conveniently ignored the whole racial composition conversation, particularly for Blacks and Latinos when it comes to deciding MBA or CFA? Don’t blame yah since we’re irrelevant and having either or both still rarely allows for the glue to dry on your Office name plate, or for the secretary to know your name.
Anyway I think it’s relevant – so my fellow Blacks & Latinos don’t be fooled by the Graffiti post, like a Kosher Hotdog you guys are held to a higher standard. You wanna play in the MBA and hang with the Pros in Finance, make sure you’re aiming for the TOP 5 B-Schools, and your diction is excellent. This should give you a decent shot at making VP some day, or trading round-lots. Thinking about CFA? Think about it after the MBA. If you’re “already” in the Front Office then definitely pursue it, but if you’re in the Back Office chop-shop the only thing the CFA will get yah is more free sandwiches from the Desk Mr Guru! CFA or not ask them for a gig in their group and you’ll be rounding P&L 5 places
For the L/S Manager in CT. You have underestimated the difficulty of the CFA exam. Your violin teacher sitting for the exam is obviously a very intelligent, dedicated person and would be equally successful in achieving an MBA from a top rated institution (if able to get in and afford it). How many top execs have undergraduate degrees in non-business fields? The pass rate for the CFA Level I exam is now below 40% – which is lower than it was when you probably took the exam. Also, take a look at some of the questions for the exam NOW versus past exams – there are no longer questions regarding median and mode (6th grade math topics). My point – the exam is more difficult than ever and gives real world knowledge instead of theories that you never use. How many academics are actually practicing in the field? How many CFA Institute members are practicing. Obviously, if one gets into a top rated school – they MUST get their MBA. But the actual education pales in comparison to the benefits provided by future networking and name recognition – that is the true power of the MBA. As various blow ups like Long Term Capital have proven – theories are great, but they are just theories.
I couldn’t agree more. You will still need a large dose of networking and luck to pentetrate this business (Asset Management). Lets not forget that many of the very important support jobs like Back, Middle and Front office Operations in addition to Marketing and Sales help to shape good performance into a Good Story!
I think that it is wonderful that you want to learn…and if you are able to pass all three tests of the CFA, you will still have to have relevent experience to get the Charter / designation. Otherwise you can just say that you passed all three tests but will not be able to officially use the designation.
As an Ivy college grad with a decent gpa but with a liberal arts major and limited economics, stats etc classes, is passing the CFA a good substitute for convincing MBA progams one can excel in this field? Or even passing several levels to put oneself in a track/company towards an MBA even without an intention of completing the CFA/ultimately entering strictly asset management?
FORGET ABOUT THE CFA. … Interpersonal skills and networking is what this game is all about…..
I’ll tell you what, you need knowledge to be in finance? You can hire knowledge. Someone asked how to get to 7 figures in finance. Here is how… skip the mba, skip the cfa, call up your local brokerage house and tell em you aint got no education but you got a fat roledex. Then sell your *&# off.
I must warn you…..many of those ivy leaguers/CFA charterholders will look down at you as they step into their bmws…when you pass them in your Ferrari you can tell yourself it was all worth it.
People seem to think more education automatically = more income…….check out the law of diminishing returns (i.e. go talk to your old finance professors and ask them how they are doing).
Finance is about sales. Why is an Ivy MBA/CFA considered de rigueur? Because those qualifications sound sooooo good when making a pitch.
whatever the argument, the most important of all is your capability and talent. CFA or MBA, with talent you will shine.
Talent is important, however all the talent in the world is meaningless if no one likes you.
If the I-Bank needs someone who speaks Russian……well find someone with Russian features with salable credentials and a shiny smile.
Do you think the actors in Hollywood make it because they are the most talented? No, they fit a role. ;)
MBA or CFA!!! if you know how to kiss your boss ass you do not need neither one, cause when you become boss you will make others kiss yours!!!
Do not ask what is the better?! say whose ass you gone kiss. People aruge for nothing and they forget simple rule, what is the use of both if we keep kissing asses!!! It is all about eithics.
All I can say 2 weeks before the exam: CFA is a set of highly valuable skills, no matter how many people actually sit the exam. But like any skill you possess you still need to sell yourself and build networks. Especially for those intending to change jobs, it’s never been easy and there’s a huge competition for FO jobs amongst MO/BO people. If you can sit an exam does not mean you will be good on the job. I would say take the CFA as young as you can, and let the thinking for afterwards. How can anybody say that commiting 18 month of its life (6 per level is what a solid preparation will take) is being a loser ? I bet this guy thinks he’s so smart he doesn’t need the skills …
MBAs are for Seppo Tanks ( Yanks ) who want to bob for apples. Instead of rubbish generalist college degrees perhaps you should take business/finance undergraduate degrees. MBAs are just the extension of the generalist theme. Get serious and specialize. CFAs are at least commited to something! Your Aussie mate.
Quit the bagging. Everyone has different goals and needs. CFA and MBA have their own merits. If someone wants to do the CFA or MBA because it’s going to enhance his/her future prospects and help get their foot in the door, then it’s their choice. Regardless, top investment banks look favourably on CFA and MBA. Even if you do possess these qualifications, you may still perform badly and get the boot. Yes, I agree talent does count especially in this industry.
MBA vs. CFA, you all can debate until you all turn blue, and nothing happens. Just look at the the world’s richest man: Bill Gates. A Billionaire with No MBA, No CFA . . . Think about it?
Good Lord,
Why so many people here have such poor English language skills?
Thomas, Private Equity / Venture Capital, Mon 23 Apr 07 – “Complimentary” means “free”, “given at no charge”.
“Complementary” means something that completes the whole.
I like your idea of MBA and CFA being complimentary, but complementary is the proper word in the context.
Anonymous, Thu 19 Apr 07 – it’s “overrated”, not “over rated” (do you really manage a hedge fund?).
Violin Teacher, Investment Banking, Thu 19 Apr 07 – it’s the “required work experience”, not “requisite work experience”.
Which schools did you guys go to?
CFA
Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary Sectond Edition; Requisite 1. required or necessary for a particular purpose, position, etc.;
Ladies and Gentlemen….please hand this man his dunce cap. You pedantic fool, I hope for the sake of you clients that you don’t manage money the way you manage your sentance structure.
Ooops, I spelled something wrong. Where is that CFA vs MBA, Hedge Funds, I need a good secretary.
Either doesn’t guarantee anything. The question is an MBA where? Wharton, Harvard or some no name school. Also an MBA for what goal? In some areas an MBA is essential(like IB, VC, PE) in others people kick behind without one. If you are in a top 30 program and in a place where an MBA will propel you forward then you can’t beat the value of one. You can’t lose with a CFA either, you don’t have to quit for 2 years to study for it and it will differentiate you from others and educate you at the same time. High Finance is really about the result the rest is just writing on a resume but to get through the 3 levels of the CFA means you have the hard skills that companies are looking for and you won’t get into to a top 30 program unless your an all-star as well.
I’ve read through this whole debate and I have a question no one has asked yet. What about a JD/CFA? I’m at a Top 20 law school right now and thinking about taking the CFA exams. What sorts of career opportunities will this open up?
All that I know is that those in our firm with MBAs from schools like Harvard, Stern, etc. are the top management. Those with CFAs and no top-school MBA or (in many cases) with a CFA and no graduate credentials (and for those who don’t know it yet, the CFA is NOT a graduate degree despite the claims of its charterholders), like to push the idea of the CFA being superior to an MBA or Masters in Economics or Finance, yet they continue to work mainly as analysts and other entry-level or near entry-level positions.
Lowly Salesman- What do you sell and what field are you in? Any advise for someone who wants to earn 7-figure commissions?
“Doing something different” asked about synergy between a law degree and a CFA. I’ll run it by the next expert I speak with, but my off-the-cuff answer is: There’s none.
The central thrust of CFA curriculum is how to value all kinds of investments, and how to construct portfolios. So it’s most applicable to roles in portfolio management or sell-side research; including senior roles like investment strategist or chief investment officer.
An MBA / JD combination offers synergy (and is highly desired) because the law degree gives added value for negotiating and structuring all types of deals — critical functions for many of the roles that MBA holders strive to end up in (especially, M&A and PE).
Since the CFA is not typically a route into deal-making roles, I don’t see any synergy with the JD.
A good career in Investment Compliance
the CFA is the most valuable for someone with only a bachelors degree and no chance at getting into a top MBA.
Ever wondered why majority of the CFAs come from schools you never heard about, and why they try to equal the CFA to top MBA?
complete nonsense….
CFA is the mother hope of back office personnel.
The real question is this: where can I get the best MRS. degree???
I have finished my Masters in statistics and want to work in Risk management and associated field. I am working in Analytics right now. Will it be useful for me to go for CFA? If yes, how much of statistics is used in the CFA curriculum?
I think the racial issue is a great point. I am in a top 3 MBA, done with level 3 CFA, but still having a bear of a time getting an entry level position on the Buy side. Yet a lot of my peers have cruised into their positions with much less aptitude/preparation. There is no magic bullet, no matter the qualifications, “fit” matters a lot in this field.
It’s always a racial issue as long a race can be used as lever to further one’s self interest. When that stops working, try another tactic.
My MBA program offered a CFA-based course which I found extrememly valuable for learning comps, NOPAT, FCFE, etc. I also learned a ton in operations and in Finance/Accounting. But I do think the B-schools put far too much emphasis on modern portfolio theory, and not enough on CFA-style valuation and analysis.
Evening all; nice debates, all very valid (apart from poor English which is NEVER acceptable). 28 y/o; Bachelors, MBA, PhD (Warwick, Cambridge, LSE in that order) and living the dream! Who cares about the rest? I earn good money and am happy. Who gives a good god damn about the details?! Each do what makes him happy, and if you’re not currently; commit to the things that will make you so in the future; WHATEVER that may be. Chin up! C.
I think it’s clear. If you attended a top tier MBA and also attained the CFA, you’re probably pleased to have earned both. However, if in the event I had to hire someone to manage my grandmother’s money and I could only choose between a MBA and a CFA charterholder, I’ll select the CFA every time. However, if I were forced to select someone (at random) to manage a company and I had two buckets of names to draw from (one, representing only top-tier MBAs while the other representing only CFAs) I would go right to the MBA bucket every time. So there you have it, if you work in Asset Management and you don’t just want to be a PM, then get both!
To the arrogant Ivy-League, silver spoon-fed, trendy, Hedge Fund DB: The reason your back office people are attempting to get the CFA is so they can work elsewhere before your arrogance destroys the place, and it will probably start with investment performance. You’re a poster child for why rational people hate the 2-20 hedge fund business.
To the Lowly Salesman: Keep on rocking! You’re living proof that with our without credentials, you still need fortitude to make it in this business! Best of luck with the tests!
just graduated a year ago and worked in the back office as Corp. Actions Trade processor. Want to be a TA. Want to know if CFA will help me.
Strange how we spend so much time reading a senseless poster board of arguments on an entirely personal vocation. If all you want to do is make money enter the gambling and porno industry. If you want to utilize your brain and not waste it away on Seinfeld reruns and arguments over spelling errors (seriously guys who cares) then study whatever it is you enjoy studying and do what it is you want. Manage that harmony and money will come regardless of what fancy letters you can call yourself. Ever seen on a grave stone “Billy Smith, CFA, MBA”? You want to learn then study, you want to make money then work. You want to argue join a debate team. CFA will help, how could it hurt? An MBA from a low tier school is better than no MBA at all. A CFA and a MBA is better than either one seperately. Is one better than the other? Did the chicken or the egg come first? Or does it really matter? Good luck on exam this weekend. I know I’ll need it.
annoynomous, Asset Management, I must say I totally agree with you. And Lowly Salesman rocks. I am just a 24 y/o nobody who knows where he is going and I think the CFA program will help me get there. And you know why I will be successful? Because you can put me next to any Ivy Leage “schmuck” and I will run circles around him. And if we go out together I guarantee that I will get twice as much action from the ladies than he.
Sitting the level 2 on Sat, didn’t feel like studying so taking a little break…
No fin experience, Top 5 Undergrad, Top 10 MBA, working at a top strat consulting firm. No desire to make partner.
My reccomendation:
First study for the GMAT after undergrad. Getting over a 700 should be achievable by anyone. This is actually quite comparable to taking the CFA L1 exam in number of hours of study. I probably put in about 100 hours.
Next get an MBA from a top school when you are around 25. Sure you can keep working, but getting an MBA is actually REALY fun. 2 of the best years of my life.
Take the CFA level I right after B-school. Shouldn’t require more than 20 hours of study. Focus on practice tests.
Wait a couple of years and sit the level 2. You will probably fail. Level 2 is pretty difficult. Its still just a multi guess exam, but they make if tricky.
The real benefit for me in this level 2 is really a refresher of all that I learned in school. There is a very small set of topics I didn’t learn in my MBA courses. Unfortunatley I forget a lot of it.
Havn’t sat level 3 yet.
Looking forward to it though. I really enjoy this stuff.
Specialization is the key. As you move up in finance, you become ever more a specialist (in equities vs fixed income, treasury vs control, trading vs banking, quant vs fundamental, small cap vs large cap, etc.). The good news / bad news of the CFA is, as someone above noted, it’s an inch deep and a mile wide. I found studying for it a lot of fun, but I already love finance and have a degree in it. It’s great to have all that breadth, and I sleep better at night knowing that my personal broker who manages my family’s money has his CFA, and has been exposed to all it covers. But for many jobs, the CFA is a bit of overkill — but in true chicken-and-egg style, you may need the CFA to break into those jobs — those very jobs for which you will use only a fraction of what you learned in the CFA!
If someone applies to work for me and they’ve got a CFA, I know that they are one diligent mofo, and it impresses me. I would still want to make sure they were up to challenge of working here (60 hrs/week on slow week, 90+ on the rare toughest week), because if they got the CFA while working full time, I would wonder how challenging their old job was. (But that’s not a deal-breaker)
[part 2] But also, people really need to think about networking and, if they feel a bit resistant to the idea, they need to really look at that. My background and credentials are stellar, and yet I’ve had some really, really brutal job hunts. I’m talking dozens of jobs applied for, hundreds of calls, dozens of face-to-faces, sometimes treated like a king, other times treated like dirt. This is a rough, competitive business, and people doing the hiring are often overwhelmed by the demands of their jobs, and niceties fall by the wayside.
Yet — and this is the really interesting thing — I am on the public record, can be found easily via a Web search or Bloomberg, am registered with my school’s alumni directory, with my work phone number listed there — and I probably get called to get asked for a job maybe once every 2 years. Yep, that rarely. And when I’ve had batches of interview candidates provided by HR, I probably had only 1 in 5 who called back to follow up after the interview — so naive are they about the indispensability of follow-up.
My point is that there is absolutely no getting around the tough, interpersonal work involved in getting your foot in the door.
[part 3 of 3] Bottom line, if you can’t picture having to initiate, say, 75 or 80 direct actions — e-mail conversations, phone calls, cold calls, banging down someone’s door for an informational — over a period of months and months, or maybe years, to get a single job (think of it like closing a major sale) you need to get your mind ready for that, and soon. Perfect credentials and a great pitch may get a person their first job fairly easily, but rest assured that down the line all of us need to pound the pavement, and hard. And don’t even get me started on job hunting during a recession! Because, no doubt, in your career, sooner or later you’ll have to do that.
So, do whatever you can to improve your resume, and be prepared to live with risk and uncertainty, and be aware that there is no magic protection from labor market kryptonite — and hopefully, enjoy the ride you’ve set up for yourself. You will have to believe in yourself, and trust in the ability to scale difficult odds. Others have done it — you can, too. But just remember that if you want certain things, certain types of rewards, there are certain things you have to be prepared to do.
Well said low salesman, lots of frivolous debates with no substance.
Lot of idiotic arguments put forward that only look at education from a signalling perspective, rather than from a curriculum content and long term impact of designation. My perspective is that the purpose of education is to enhance capacity to learn in new situations, the rest is peripheral
CFA’s main value from a content perspective, is providing a broad awareness of different facets of investment management , it also has a program of continuous education (journals, magazines and tapping you into the ntework of professionals)
-MBA can fulfill the same function though tailored at a broader sectoral audience and providing an opportunity to practice engagement skills. Some MBAs can be more academically rigorous than the CFA.
- Arguments related to the employability and signalling value of these designations are susceptible to erroneous attribution and fail to acknowledge that these designations are part of a broader armoury (i.e. capacity to learn new information, understand intricacies of specific jobs), I think every candidate needs to ask are you better off for doing either the CFA or MBA relative to yourself, and I cannot envisage the answer not being in the affirmativ
Great comments! You hit the nail on the head with regards to specialisation, networking and career positioning. Too much weight is put on the signalling value rather than the long term benefits of these designations/experiences. The CFA neatly complements practical experience and gives you a framework/capacity/initial platform of taking in new bits of information with the rapidly evolving product range and the intricate relationships/interactions of different facets of the capital allocation process. It is true that it is a mile wide and an inch deep in many aspects but an awareness of this limitation should provide the incentive to continuosly improve oneself.
Great comments!
Is this a teen forum? Why are the admins allowing personal insults and condescending remarks to be posted? Lets keep this a DISCUSSION and not a flame war. please.
It depends on your angle.
1. 15 years ago sitting for the CFA made sense, but the last few years, the value of the charter is -sadly- absurdly diluted. Still, the exams offer a good overview of many functional areas and the three year work experience does make a huge difference.
2. My experience leads me to believe that I am better off hiring the top guy (1- 3%) from a B-level MBA program with a CFA than the average (or, god forbid, a below average) guy from a top 10 MBA program. I run a research shop: I need someone who can sit down and crack a problem in 48 hours non-stop. And since I am not at a top shop (I do not want to be there), the quality of candidates from the top 10 MBA programs that are interested in us is fairly “weak”. Yet, I am not worried since the top people (1-3%) from a B-level school with a CFA can crank out pretty much the same stuff as a very good guy from a top 10 MBA program.
3. The major advantage top 10 MBA grads have is the “network”, which unless well managed diminishes in value quite quickly.
4. I would only recommend the CFA only to those grads from a top 10 MBA program who are below average.
(I have a top Europen MBA, a CFA, and a PhD.)
I have a CFA and MBA and currently work in research. I currently work on the sell side and I have tried for several years to get a job on the buy side. The problem is that I am a generalist and everyone is looking for a specialist. If I don’t exactly match the skills they are looking for, they will pass on me. it has to be small cap, healthcare, or some kind of specialized experience.
What bugs me is that these firms will hire fresh MBA’s that haven’t seen a whole market cycle over me with 15 years in the biz. I have analyzed everything, but I specialize in nothing. Its puzzling, but at least I have a job in research now and its still fufilling.
Get into a top MBA if you want to be the CEO of a multinational company. But go and earn the CFA if you want to work in financial markets. Who cares about how difficult it is to get into a top MBA, it is SIMPLY not the best credential for every single job in finance.
Who cares if everyone can sit the Level 1, only the smartest will get the charter.
You have to choose and specialize. If I had to choose between a musician with a top MBA and a taxi driver with a CFA, I would not hire any of them. First, you need the experience, next, go for the CFA or MBA depending on your goal. If two candidates have the same experience and undergraduate backgrounds, I will choose a CFA charterholder for a position in financial markets and someone with an MBA for managerial roles.
The networking will help you get/close a deal, but probably at the wrong price!! if you don’t have the quantitative skills. So having both designations is the best option, as they complement each other.
BOTH ARE EXCELLENT, although I believe that soft skills are overrated.
I have to agree with those who seem to think that the CFA and MBA provide different skill sets. As a budding equities analyst, it appears that an MBA is needed for access to the labor market. In order to gain access, if one has a well recognized MBA, then he or she can easily find a job on the street. Whereas, the CFA is more of a truly distinguishing mark. This is illustrated by the four year work requirement needed to have the CFA designation conferred. To speak of the CFA as merely passing three tests is missing the point.
The MBA should be seen as a ticket or ante to start. The CFA is more of a unique selling proposition that allows a specific analyst to separate himself or herself from the incompetents and the average.
Of course at the end of the day, if you can’t properly apply the information from CFA (or even MBA), it’s all useless! I just finished a bunch of hands-on financial modeling classes and programs both live and online with Wall St. Training and they have helped me apply the information learned from CFA and school. (www.wallst-training.com and http://www.wstselfstudy.com)
Amazing breadth of comments. Some very insightful, others not…
Yes, many people might sit for the CFA level 1 exam, but with 30-40% pass rates, I would questions the assertions by some that the designation has been diminished. Even more so when one compares today’s questions to those of years ago. They are tough tests.
I am with the majority that both the CFA and MBA together comprise a fine body of learning. As a top-10 MBA grad (engineering background) I find the CFA material is challenging enough. As for the MBA, all the challenge really seemed to be getting in. Once in, it was all about hours of hard work, but I never felt that passing any exam was a worry. The CFA is a little different in that respect.
Done with level 3 and 2005 MBA I still cant get a proper role clearly because I am black.What do you think guys
My 2 cents -> It’s not how much you make, it’s how much you keep. That train of thought and logical investmenting is what will really open up doors for you.
I truly envy those pursuing their passion. Only you can decide if a MBA and/or CFA will help you get there. For those pursuing money (and there are plenty out there)… Spend less than you make, otherwise you may never end up happy.
I think that the CFA is the more practical degree ( ie stresses finance as opposed to “soft” skills via MBA). What I am interested in doing is combining the CFA along with an MS in mathematical finance; I believe that the combination will help propel me into an associate trading position at a large IB or hedge fund. My question is, will this be enough to be hired as an associate?
elect, you are probably wrong. thats an excuse, and an excuse only
I am currently working, (22 Y-O, BSc grad Physics) in trade suppot for a major i-bank and am stuck between taking the GMAT and doing an MBA or taking the CFA. What would be best in the long run if i want to go into flow trading? (Both)
NR,Research Very well said. In my experience, guys with great jobs that have CFA and/or MBAs are Type As. It’s because of their personality that they “overqualify”, but they can easily succeed without them too. (aka Bill Gates, Warren Buffet…) On the other hand, middle/back office personals, many of them probably are too inert to cold call or afraid to get shut down what have you. Even if they have a CFA, they probably feel more comfortable sitting back and waiting to be “discovered” which unless you are already a top producer, does not happen. The industry is a funny one, people are willing to overpay for results and there is a herd mentality, but you have to do a lot of work before being discovered.
Tich, why don’t you start a new fund / I-bank and target Black individuals and businesses? i am 44, brown, with no finance experience, and will most likely enroll in the MSc program in Fin Economics at the LSE this September. Maybe you can offer me a job when i graduate!
Everybody should be given chance whether a voilin teacher or a Boxer. They should have a right to choose or change career whenever they want. Many companies don’t accept applications if you are not a CFA but only an MBA.
I am not sure if anyone will be able to answer this question, but Im going to ask anyways. I am in my final year of undergrad studies and I’m thinking about taking the Level I CFA exam. I am wondering if someone as young as me, and not as experienced (1 full year of internship experience), will be able to pass the examination? Has it happened before, is this not as rare of an occurence as I presume it to be?
Wow, that was a tedious read. I was interested enough to peruse this entire blog simply to find out after much introspection, whether or not I should go ahead a pursue the CFA. Mind you, I have absolutely no interest in an MBA. Although my academic passions are business and finance, I am more curious about finance. I have read a wide array of views, some of which flatly denounced the charter without remorse. Gladly, having come to the end I found hope in the words of NR, Research and the others who displayed pragmatism in their comments. My problem is that I am a generalist myself and I have reservations about specialising. Committing to the CFA leads me in a specialist direction, and I am torn between my passion for both business and finance. However reflecting on some of the comments, I remember it’s important to know what YOU want in life and subsequently focussing on that want and going out to get it. The CFA I think will only make me more marketable. And if I succeed outside of high finance I would know that my CFA had not been a waste of time, but would have been instrumental in compounding my knowledge to that point. Learn and Live !!
BA and MSc in [Business and Finance]
This has been a very interesting and relevant forum for me. If you believe the MBA schools’ “viewbooks” then any of us should be able to get an MBA from a top-tier school – all you have to do is get in and they claim to accept all types. With that said, I recently tried… and failed. However, I have a CFA and in many asset management/consulting roles, that is all you need. Sadly, Wall Street is dominated by Chicago, Columbia and Wharton finance MBAs. Most Wall Street firms don’t have the time to cull out the best candiates for their jobs, so they rely on the top MBA programs to do it for them. But to suggest that getting the CFA is some indication that you couldn’t get an MBA or that your job was easy enough to allow you to pass is absurd. Also, I don’t think getting a CFA as a way to strengthen your MBA application is helpful either. Getting an MBA is mostly about your ability to market yourself, which is seemingly something many Wall Street firms value.
Having completed my ACCA in 2005 I was considering the CFA exams for the next 3 years of my life. 3 years is a long time to dedicate for a qualification specially when I am already at 29 with no prior IB/VC experience. One thing is for sure, everyone who has claimed to go for a top MBA presumes that everybody is cash rich. Not all of us have 100k to spend on a MBA. Achievment of a qualification also heavidly depends on how much dosh you have in the bank.
What do I do now?! I am CONFUSED!!!!!!!
I’m an outsider (7 yrs in industry) trying to break into entry-level equity analysis. MBA with distinction (top 5%) from 64th ranked b-school and no interviews. Majority of stockpicking job ads are asking for CFA (or ACA)- the designation appears to have reached a critical mass whereupon it is now a hallowed pre-qualifier. Why CFA/ACA? Saves HR screening time, similar to the old “never got sacked for buying IBM” logic, ensures that the hiree is sufficiently quant and not likely to recommend stock that bombs. Same screen applies in marketing to Chartered Institute of Marketing’s postgrad qualification- it’s just a pass ticket. But CFA background means you’ll be thinking similarly to the stock market- examining the same info and weighting the info the same as everyone else. And investing is a zero/ near zero sum game, so if you think like everyone else, you’ll get much the same investment returns like everyone else. CFA= reverting to the mean?
But what matters most to the entry-level job hunter- actual investment performance or marketability to employers? The latter of course- taking level 1 in December.
Hi,
I have also one question. I think about enroll for the CFA level I exam im dezember 2007. I’m working in a sales department of an investment bank and have started a few month ago, field is equity derivatives sales.
What do you suggest: Is a CFA meaningfully for people in sales / trading? Or is CFA only an optimal further training for Asset Management / Research / M & A / Capital Markets?
regards
IB24
I will soon qualify as a Chartered Accountant, and will someday inherit a sizeable amount of capital, I joke you not. I plan to drive its growth through my lifetime. Is a MBA or CFA best? Is it worth the effort to do it yourself?
PD- I’m in a similiar-ish position to you. Re. your 2nd question, the following is based on one investment ‘style’ only (garp, bottom-up, focussed portfolio). Yes definitely worth it IF you have the right temperament- patient, humble, rational, inquisitive, disciplined. First invest the bulk of capital in an index tracker. Research 30 companies that you understanding based on past experience. Over the course of say 5 years there will be several opportunities to invest from the index tracker into specific businesses. Wait for market irrationality to give you a great price for some of these 30 businesses. Now research the one with a great price to the point you understand it better than the analysts. If it’s selling cheaply and you’re willing to invest 5%+ of fund and hold for 10 yrs- buy it. Over time, become fully invested in c. 10 investments and watch like a hawk and hold for min. 3 yrs each. Whilst waiting for these investment moments, read everything on Mauboussin, Buffet and Munger, Graham, Siegel, Damodaran and Fisher and others in that area.
Part 2. Private investors can achieve 20%+ net return p.a. by doing what any good business strategy, and hence investment strategy, should- compete (invest) in a manner that the majority cannot imitate. This makes institutions chasing alpha and reducing beta appear redundant.
This appears to be another much ado about nothing:
1. How do you compare an apple with an orange? My kindergarden kid says that “a” is for apple and “o” is for orange; and so M is for MBA and C is for CFA.
2. Even within MBAs, not all are created equal, although CFA appears to be more standardized.
3. As pointed out by some earlier, it ultimately depends upon the aspiration and ability of each individual.
So, let this be the LAST COMMENT and we all go back to make our millions and stop missing the trees in a forest.
However, my crytal ball is getting less cloudy and signal a crash around the corner and market crash has no preference for MBA or CFA.
A few comments up, PD asked about managing one’s own (presumably large) nest-egg: “Is it worth the effort to do it yourself?”
The best answer, for someone who becomes independently wealthy, probably is, “Only if investing is what you love.”
Your money should work for you — not the other way around. While it’s important to get decent returns, there are plenty of compentent money managers out there, and plenty of well-trained consultants qualified to help you select and monitor them.
So, if inherited wealth gives you greater freedom than most of us enjoy to decide what you will do with your life, don’t squander that freedom by devoting your life to personally managing your money, unless managing investments is the one thing you most love doing. (And if you do go that route, getting a CFA, MBA or other heavy-duty training will equip you to manage other people’s money while you’re at it.)
Readers who commented about this story might want to take a look at eFC’s latest CFA-related article, first published today: http://news.efinancialcareers.com/NEWS_ITEM/newsItemId-10785
Wake Up. CFA, GMAT and MBA are businesses for the institutions that earn money by those programs. They want you to take the exam and possibly fail.. you pay $1200 for an exam without any class and any proffessor, really good business for them. The same with the GMAT.
Warren Buffet, Soros, Steve Cohen, Peter Lynch, O’Neill, etc.. none of the best trader and investors holds a CFA!
Tich, there is a glass ceiling….but why wait for the mindsets of senior management who grew up in an era dogged with racial tension to change and then employ you into their old boys’ network? Become an entrepreneur, you have an MBA to back the entrepreneurial push, and a CFA for the financial pull….so I say you should create your own asset management or financial services company. A.G Gaston or Robert L. Johnson are fine examples. Why seek approval where it will not be given? there are many ethnic races with high net worth who would like their assets to be managed by those who intrinsicly understand their cultural values so why not tap into that niche? I did it, when I go to client meetings and they realise that not only am I black but I am also female, they are stunned, of course, after managing their funds for so many years, they certainly can’t doubt my intellect or competence, after all,the returns on their assets are living proof of my ability. It’s about time we as black people had our own blue chips. Besides, this MBA CFA forum is debating academic issue attainment and credentials, not race. Let’s not blur the topic issues.
Good luck
C. Michaels – you used the wrong word, “cents”. It should have been “sense”. So, you may not want to bash other people’s grammar and spelling.
Do any of you people actually work? Or do you just spend most of your time comparing yourselves to one another? It seems to me that the only thing the Top 10 MBA schools do is teach their graduates to be pretentious and talk about themselves a lot. Are you sure that you’re finance majors and not self-centered marketing majors? Simply answer is get the best MBA you can and get a CFA if you can, and try to live a good life.
The most important thing about the CFA is that it gives everyone an equal opportunity to prove themselves. It is true that 140,000 people registered to sit the exam this year, but it happens to be that there are only 68,000 charterholders out there. Probably the same number of people that received a top 20 MBA in the past 30 years. This shows you how low the percentage of passing the CFA is, and how many people quit (statistically you have a 15% chance of passing the three levels of CFA from the first go). On the other hand, that’s around the same rate of admission to top 20 MBA schools. Bottom line, both have their merits, and doing any of them will reap great rewards.
Good luck
I feel like I hit a ceiling in IT.. salary-wise 150k +/- and this is it. there is nowhere to go.
So I looked at the salaries in finance and i saw the same numbers.. less then 10% make more then 150K… sad, very sad.S
Help! I am swamped with choices. Any advice welcome
I worked as a senior private banker before I co- founded a private clients consultancy in London. I am aged 35, BA grad,IMC and a Chartered Certified financial planner. I am facing a mind boggling dilemma on this current juncture regarding my career choices and further education; here are some of the questions i have;
1. Considering my age, have i missed the party to work in hedge funds or private equity/VC and by completing MSC in finance or CFA, will it improve my options?
Alternatively,
2. Will an MBA help to pursue senior management roles
Thanks for all your views
Hello All,
It was a pleasure reading your comments on MBA & CFA. I come from a different field. I have a bachelors and a masters in mechanical engineering. I’m currently pursuing my MBA. After having seen my friends making the big bucks in Finance, I have started getting into a dilemma whether I should have registered for CFA or my decision to do MBA is justifiable. Kindly, advice.
I advise you reading: http://phdmbacfa.blogspot.com/2007/08/and-what-about-cfa.html . It seems that MBA vs. CFA war really depends on focus. In general MBA is better, but in particular areas like trading CFA takes an edge…
I am just completing an ivy league MBA, however fundamentally the course content does not vary greatly accross AACSB accredited MBA programs – only the networking opportunities. The breadth of the program spans all management disciplines, so you, in theory can advance in many streams inside our outside of finance (marketing, H.R. operations, accounting etc.). Therefore, the MBA may provide greater potential to advance in management generally. Additional finance specialization, or additional coursework can certainly enhance your opportunity in finance, as would the CFA. Simply put, the MBA is broader, the CFA more focused.
I need a suggestion from you,
Is it good to do CFA or MS (Finance) Correspondence from ICFAI University, will this course stand good adding value to my profile.
Send me the Mail to sanju.agrawal2005@gmail.com
Not true. All can pass 3 levels consecutively. 8-16% of the CFA population do so – do you have what it takes?
I don’t think it would be easy to complete both an MBA and the CFA since the CFA is a very tough test to pass. I am wondering why spend so many years studying toward the CFA designation when it won’t make you a better stock picker. I suspect that the reason the folks make the CFA designation a tough test is because it is good for their business meaning that they make a lot of money. If the test was easy then they would not be able to make tons of money. I don’t want to waste my time studying for this test but go to a school to study toward an MBA and then apply for an entry-level research analyst position. Not all research analyst positions require the CFA designation. How do I know? Please check the Merrill Lynch job search website and look for “research” from the list and a number of jobs will appear. These positions do not require the CFA but at least an MBA. If you want to work in the asset management field or become a portfolio manager then you must have a CFA desination.
Go for the CFA guy. Im on line to pursue one aftyer my graduatin august next year and i think having an IT degree and CFA is mouth watering. I think CFGA is better than MBA due to the job opportunities available, and then again im good in numbers and finance assesment.Go for it!
Hi ive just finished a MBA, i really want to get in to investment banking, what would be the best course of action?
FYI—Looser is spelled loser—idiot!
Would the person who insists on throwing the word “looser” about with such gay abandon please learn to use the correct word in the context! It is loser!
I’m an auditor with a few years of public accounting experience at a large public accounting firm. I am interested in business valuations and asset management. My undergrad GPA is a piece of @#$% and I have no chance of making it into a top MBA program. However, I plan on sitting for the CFA and also plan to obtain other financial certifications such as the CVA and CMA. So with a total of 4 certifications (CPA, CVA, CMA & CVA) combined with 3+ years of audit experience, what are my chances of breaking into asset management? Although these certifications are not directly related to asset management, they certainly indicate an in-depth understanding of financial statements, business valuation, and internal financial management. Does anybody have any opinions on other financial certifications such as the ones mentioned above?
Well said..
cfa institute has only made the procedure less stringent for sitting in the exam not passing the exam ,passing the exam in fact becomes tougher ,all this talk of having tougher entry requirements betray insecurity ,so what if a taxi driver or a violen teacher appear for the exam ,if you have the aptitute go for it ,high priced MBA or other programmes with high thershold entry can keep the really meritorios people out
finally someone speaks the TRUTH…only occasionally will a plebe join the all-star ranks..you can earn all the designations and Phd you want but you must know that someone!
You like throwing away money dont you?? If you MUST go into financial services industry..go work for a brokerage, take a series 6 and 7…and make $$$..during that time MBA out of boredom.
I was looking at doing an MBA but with 1000s of schools globally and 100,000s of MBAs being pumped out, all claiming that their school was the “top school” for something or other, I wanted to try to find one that would be sufficiently differentiated.
Seems like an MBA is getting more and more commoditised so need to find a good brand with which to signal my excellence
Would you say the most expensive ones are the best? or should the ranking in the survey based on alumni salries be relied on principally?
Is anything you learn of significance or if the network really is that much more important couldn’t I just hang out at the coffee bar and sneak into a few associations on the sly?
Your guidance would be much appreciated.
I understand how a top 10 MBA will get you in front of the people you need to be in front of, my question is that if I am already interested in business valuation/asset mgmt to the point where I want to get the CFA anyway, but based on my undergrad I normally would not get into a top 10 MBA school, would the CFA designation (accompanying a great GMAT score) have the same effect on the admissions committee that a high quality undergrad degree would?
To the HEDGE FUND MANAGERS that have posted here…
In an attempt to debase the merit of a CFA, you support you argument with notion that low barrier to entry equates to a less notable achievement. I suggest you keep this in mind the next time you liberally tell people you are a “L/S Hedge Fund manager” as there are now ~8,000 of them out there(and growing). As we all know now, there is no real barrier to entry when starting a fund (albeit a sizable seed does help). When all is said and done the + alpha is determining factor of success. It puzzles me that, as an investor, you still haven’t figured out that talk is cheap.
Lets cut to the chase:
The MBA is for wimps, and the CFA is for champs! PERIOD!
Anyone that is considering either an MBA of CFA decides to go for an MBA first in today’s global market place is obviously living under a rock. In a few more years there’s going to be so many CFA’s in China & India that if you don’t get one you can kiss you career in good bye! Don’t believe me? Do the research…MBA’s don’t even come close to what the CFA prepares you for. Do I know what I’m talking about? Yup, I got em both…
Regards, SECTR.
I am really confused on my next career move , currently doing a diploma in investment compliance and i have a degree in Economic and Social policy , not sure if the diploma is worth it any advice?
Think about how much time you have wasted debating this nonsense.
Its all about knowing that someone to pull your coat, HAVING the skills to keep the job and excel at it..forget your flavor of the week designations (its called profit for the trademark holders. Or if you have the vision and energy CREATE YOUR OWN BUSINESS!!!
This is exactly the type of narrow-minded comment which will put many people, regardless of their financial background, off taking the CFA exam. Undoutably, you are in a very fortunate postion ‘looking down’ from your post as the manager of a hedge fund but lest you forget, it is the new breed ie those who are hungry for success and are willing to commit despite their rather limited background that will superseed this likes of you im afraid.
I trade for fun and sell for a living. I have debated the MBA thing and am probably going to opt for a graduate degree in Linguistics. I’ve already had accounting, finance, etcetera but at the undergraduate level. I’m self-employed and I sell often because I can converse about basic life topics that have nothing to do with MBA knowledge. I feel by studying linguistics my desire for studying something analytical will be satisfied. I have no idea why, but when I think about taking an MBA versus a degree in linguistics, I feel nauseatingly bored with the MBA idea, but the idea of studying linguistics I find exciting. Wierd, but true. I manage others in my field and make most of my money on overrides and my salespeople work for me if I give them basic customer service and courtesy. Did I mention the Linguistics program allows me to go to class over my lunch hour whereas an MBA would require me to go to class at night?
I don’t make seven figures, but I make just under $400,000. Being self-employed allows me to not have to deal with someone telling me when to show up and who’s ass to kiss.
When starting out in asset management, I asked the top three senior managers (CEO, COO and CIO) which designation to pursue. Without hesitation, they all said “CFA.” In sum, they found everyone has an MBA and most of them didn’t really learn much besides management jargon, but anyone with a CFA designation is someone who they know can walk the walk of investment and financial practice and theory.
As a Dual MBA/MS in Finance who plans on taking L1 in Dec 2008, the way I look at it, having both can only help you no matter what path you choose. The MBA gives you the broad business knowledge. The CFA gives you the specific financial knowledge. If you can’t see a career scenario where having both will help you, I can’t call it. At the bare minimum, studying for the CFA makes you a more savvy individual investor able to decipher most of what you’ll read in the daily business news. The MBA will help you immensely if you ever want to create your own company, even if it’s just a simple S Corp with you as the only employee.
In my situation I have 10 years of experience in IT consulting. Decided to try a career switch and figured a MBA, MS in Finance and a Level 1 passing would at least get me in front of someone. I’ll spend less than 50-55K to get both degrees and the CFA charter and I already consider it well worth the money spent. Worst case if I can’t break into the Street, I could put the MSF/CFA knowledge to good use in my own personal investing and the MBa knowledge to use in my old gig. And I’d still make 100/hr as a consultant if I stayed doing IT. Poor me.
Whats best to work as a Proprietary Trader in a Bank, an Economic degree, or a Finance Degree????.
Regards
Anyone that could offer me career advice based on the following would be greatly appreciated:
I hold both an MBA in International Business and a Bachelor’s in Business from B-schools. I am currently a Portfolio Accounting Analyst. I audit global investments in Publicly Funded Pension Plans. I want to pursue a career in I-Banking, M&A, or P/E. Besides networking in and outside my company; would a CFA or a JD be more beneficial to pursue?
I think the limitation is due to the number of seatings allowed per testing area. When I signed up for my 1st exam, the institute noted on time and seating availability.
I strongly believes that MBA more globally and compulsory Degree,
but if you are willing to move forward you can consider the CFA as professionalism degree
There are many misconception which many people have regarding these two qualifications. Fact of the matter they are just qualifications. I believe it is truly wrong to imagine that a qualification will give you a good job. Every individual is different, and different skills are required in finance for different roles. We cannot amalgamate several different departments. It shows how immature some of the people are, who have posted a response to this article. Without a sense of direction, you cannot achieve your goals. The CFA and MBA are merely tools to help achieve these goals. The CFA is more focused, and the MAB is more general. Generalists as well as specialists are needed in the industry. But for a management role, history has proven that being sensible has nothing to do with what school you graduated from, or what professional designation you write next to your name. If you are not mature, level headed and responsible you will make inevitable errors along the way.
For the Hedge Fund Manager from CT. It is your sort of people that deserve to be shamed in this indistry for being in positions of power and living so terribly to their title.
“You are 28, 29 years old with both a CFA and an MBA and six years of work experience.”
I really doubt getting a CFA designation plus a MBA degree in 6 year while working full time in financial industrial is a good idea. You will be really pushing yourself, not only one have to be disciplined, he/she must also be able to remain sane after 6 year of continuous Sleep deprivation.
touche..MBA is a BS talk degree and the CFA is get your hands dirty and actually learn something tangible “degree”. CFA return outweighs that of a MBA in terms of actual subject matter expertise anyday, regardless if you goto Wharton or Rutgers…
You guys should do the combine MBA/CFA programs. Take a look at Goodmans institute for example. Earning both gives indead very good tools for LR career.
We’ve already written about combined programs. See our September 2007 story, “MBA, CFA Get Hitched,” at http://news.efinancialcareers.com/NEWS_ITEM/newsItemId-11433. A list of universities around the world that are officially recognized as “CFA Program Partners” can be found at http://www.cfainstitute.org/cfaprog/university/partners.html.
Why not go to UW-Madison and get your CFA and MBA at the same time? You also will gain hands-on experience by managing real money. Check out the website:
http://www.bus.wisc.edu/asap/
The 1st line in your second paragraph has bad english grammer. But thank you for the “intellegent” response !
Hi I am a IT professional with 3 yrs of workex. Am workin in a IT division of a leading investment bank. Want to know how can CFA program add value to my career?
Thanks in advance.
I’m in a mid-level B School going for my MSF (I should finish near the top of my class) while studying for the CFA and working full time. It is a ton of work but my work, school, and the CFA all compliment each other. I should graduate with my MSF degree and finish Level 2 at the same time. I wish I could have gone to a better b-school by situation ($$$$) caused this route. I’m open to the possibly of a MBA a top 5 school later, but not locked into that idea. I’m HOPING that the MSF/CFA L2/few years of experience (I’m only 23) will lead me on that road to success.
In my case I think I made the best of my situation. The CFA/MSF combo will yield the best results.
The CFA and MBA are vastly different but complimentary to some folks. Both can create quite a bit of value or wealth. So it just depends what is the best fit for you.
My out of characters so I’ll jump to the next post.
But it all comes down to your situation.
You should go for the top 5 MBA if you graduate undergrad and you are able to a solid job at a top bank or firm with the credentials to get in said school. Perhaps you can do the CFA in the meantime, but the top 5 MBA should be your focus.
If for whatever reason (money, GPA, test scores) you don’t think you’ll be able to get into a top 5 b school without further development and/or you cannot get a solid job out of undergrad you should go the CFA route. However, you should get a graduate degree PLUS the CFA. I would not just do the CFA by itself.
Of course that involves people straight out of undergrad. If you’ve been working and older then it all changes.
The two things I would not do are simple. Graduate undergrad and immediately get a MBA at a lower level school. Take the CFA after undergrad with no plans on graduate school.
Either way you slice it you need to have a great personality, you need to sell yourself, and you need to network. My MSF program has tons of network ops, but not as much as a top MBA program obviously. Plus don’t forget there are tons of clubs/associations made for networking. Top 5 MBAs aren’t the only way.
As a former professional musician (And I do mean professional) now in a top MBA program, I find some of these comments troubling… particularly the ones about not hiring a musician with an MBA.
I am a 23year old with 3 years solid accounting and SAP experience currently completing CIMA. I am looking at starting CFA next year and then want to round this off with the “soft skills” of the MBA. Can anyone give me some solid advice on how to get a foot in the door with a Blue Chip where these skills are A) Required and B) where i will be able to get the exposure needed to successfully complete both CFA and the MBA? It seems like we have a solid “network” of people in the trade here.
For me, this is particularly interesting discussion. After college, I attended law school under the mistaken assumption that lawyers could transition to careers in banking. Wrong. After working at BigLaw Corporate/Sec/M&A from a time, I had no luck. Then, I took (and passed) Levels I and II of the CFA. Still nothing. Getting concerned (for by then I had so much vested in the career change) I applied to B-School, and before I enrolled in my first class had completed Level III.
Now I am in my second semester MBA. I have finally landed a summer position at a large fund, but I am convinced I would not have had that good fortune had I now undertaken both the CFA and MBA. Many of my classmates wanted positions similar to mine; but with my record of going after it “at any cost” I guess I demonstrated a certain determination.
So, if you’re serious, my advice would be both. Get the CFA before MBA, then you (hopefully) will land the position you want.
OMG, a CFA AND an MBA – now that must cost a fortune:(
to the alleged long short hedge fund manager from CT:
your diatribe reeks of bullsh*t old bean. wake up to yourself. cfa may be open to ‘anyone’ as you say . . .though you missed the critical piece, the most valuable piece, which you as a hedge fund manager should understand more than most . . . you still have to pass.
i m an IT person.what would be more appropriate for me.. doing an MBA or CFA??i want to make a move from my present sector….
For making carreer in finance more independent one should go for CFP rather than CFA.
DO YOU THINK THAT CIIA COULD BE A LITTLE CFA?
It helps to have an MBA or be a CFA Charterholder. When I was hiring new analysts (without experience) when I was Director of Research I looked for people with an MBA and for people who had taken some level of the CFA examinations (this indicated that they were serious about investments).
Check out the CFA Partners (on the CFA Institute’s website). Also, Cornell, Boston University, and University of Wisconsin (www.uwasap.org) offer MBA programs that are CFA Partners and where students manage real portfolios as part of the learning process.
Is CFA only really relevant when someone has completed LevelII or there are actually people who choose to work with and develop candidates
Some of these obvious sales guys don’t understand that many people want a more intellectual vocation. At the end of the day, the sales guy knows, deep down, he is a slave to his rolodex. I would hate to live that way.
so in your opinion which person with a specified predicament, that is to say the MBA or the CFA will get a great amount in salary?
Hi, I am presently working as a Financial Advisor in London, UK. I am thinking of going for the CFA Level I in June of 2009. In 2005, I did my MBA from Glasgow, UK. I wish to pursue a career in Investment Banking…I have absolutely no idea about I. Banking but have heard that it has a great potential. Can somebody please advice me if going for the CFA would be beneficial to me. What about the value of CFA in the Indian or Dubai job market????
I have a BS EE from Lehigh, ’00, though a 2.5 gpa. I am currently working for Lockheed Martin in San Jose, and am in a MS program in Systems Engineering (& Eng. Mgmt) from George Washington U with a 3.8 gpa. I am thinking of asset management, and am considering the CFA and a top tier MBA. I have undergrad contacts in NYC in finance, having lived there for 3 years out of school, though for now want to stay in CA. I know I didn’t study enough in undergrad, but at least now I have an improved gpa, and will graduate next May. I will have ~5 years with Lockheed showing job advancement, which I now is desirable to MBA schools. My job experience prior to Lockheed was a bit shaky though. My gf is starting med school Irvine, so I am looking at So Cal hedge funds, etc.
I recently got advice to go for the CFA from a person with a non-business degree. I am thinking of studying for the CFA level 1 and applying for funds in So Cal. How much experience in finance is needed given my MS to get into a top MBA program?
How much value is seen in eng. experience at a major defense contractor in landing a job that might be an analyst in tech sector or defense. Advice
Hi, I am an IT guy who wants to get into Finance Industry. Will a CFA level 2 or level 3 boost my chance of getting an admit into the top 20 BSchools In US ?
Any Violin teacher intelligent enough should be given a chance to sit in. This isn’t like becoming a medical doctor or a bridge engineer after one day. I think finance people give themselves too much credit.
what about some free ” Common Sense Lessons” you can get from the empirical school of experience and hard work? On the techinical side there are always books you can buy and study by yourselves, friends in the industry who can teach you finacial tricks and provide you with some good real world tips.
If you can’t get into the asset management field with a CFA, just start your own business. Convince others to invest in your ideas and be your own boss. Be an entrepreneur. If you fail, big deal. You’re back where you started with some less money. You only live once. It will be a great experience either way. If you don’t trust your own abilities, you shouldn’t even bother because you can’t cut it.
I WANT TO TAKE UP CFA AS O FROFESSIONAL COURSE
BUT RECENTLY I HAVE HEARD THAT THE COURSE IN INDIA IS NOT GOOD & DOESNT PROVIDE GOOD JOB OPPORTUNITIES
IS THIS TRUE OR NOT
I WANT INFORMATION ABOUT CFA
I will be sitting for the level three exam in June, but I really do not know if it will really matter to have my CFA. Top positions are for well connected and smart individuals. I will not attempt to take anything away from either CFA charterholders or graduates of top MBA programs because I think that both have worked hard for what they got. What I am not too happy about is that some of us who are really working hard, but have not made the right decisions in the right time, or were not able to get into an MBA program (International student who had to go to an average MBA program so he did not have to be kicked out of the USA) have to not only accept the job of the coffee maker but to be happy that they got that far. Is it fair that even studying for 3 years is not enough to earn enough respect to have your email answered, I do not know the answer, but what I know that I will advise my children not to think of the world as a fair place and to know that even if the market is going crazy (No top Investment Banking job for regular guys/girls) they have to go with the flow. As for me, I still have some fight in me. I just don’t know how much is left in the tank
it’s very nice to see comment on CFA & MBA.
Its quite clear that an MBA from a top institution adds value. But having paid a heck of a lot of money for mine at HBS I can’t be sure what it added to career progress. Yes it was good for networking and some basic business knowledge but that’s about it.
Having the CFA too, i do respect its rigor and applicability. I actually left being an analyst after receiving my charter. I can only recommend it, and certainly when recruiting new analysts I consider it an absolute must.
An MBA only counts from a world top 20 institute. Otherwise it is only a mediocre psychology and accounting degree applied to business.
Hi, I’m a level 2 candidate. I have a BSc in Comp Sci and I’m working as a software engineer in Singapore. I have been sourcing for entry level investment related jobs in Singapore after passing level 1 for about 6 mths. I find that without a finance related degree or experience, it is very tough to break into the investment world in Singapore even after passing CFA level 1. Anyone with similar experience? Any constructive comments will be appreciated. Thx!
I’ve been in the industry for a few years now – Private Equity to be specific, and I can tell you the names with ‘TOP 10 BSCHOOL’ credentials always get a bigger piece of the pie. It doesn’t matter if you are a CPA, CFA, CFP, etc. those are just initials and there are tons of designations popping up. On the end of the day a ‘TOP 10 BSCHOOL’ is recognized worldwide and goes with you unti you die. Whether you choose to go into politics, write books, or create your own Fund, you will have that network and degree with you. Again, I emphasize ‘TOP 10 BSCHOOL’ not just any old MBA. There’s a lot of CFA’s that cannot speak at meetings and just provide good quant models but can never hold a managerial position.
Hi there
In my country Trinidad the CFA is looked on with great respect and admiration. I have an ACCA and I am an FCCA AND I am currently enrolled in the CFA program and I have worked in London as an Accountant . If I had to choose between someone from a top 20 US business school or a CFA, I would choose a CFA.
Simply because when I looked at the MBA’s I found them quite easy and something anyone can pick up on and because of the lack of structure in some of the courses they dont set a standard.
The CFA does set a standard, 40% pass and lots fail and quit.
Where I am from I got fired as an Internal Auditor because I was doing the CFA. The FD got jealous and the IA Supervisor (unqualified) got scared. This just shows how highly regarded the qualification is
Interesting comments all along, I have the ACA, currently studying for the CFA and CFq (corporate finance qualification offered by ICAEW, more I-banking/private equity related) and probably will get my MBA from a World Class institution in the near future, all this hardwork not to increase my pay year by year…or to deal with co-workers and competition in cubicles and small reports…but to gain credibility…when starting out a fund with no established history and a small network…the perceived value of your education and experience helps alot in getting capital but I would like to have all this behind me before 30 so I can focus on setting up something with one or two partners in a similar situation…people in mainstream capital markets and i-banking are the only ones who actually can separate the CFA to asset management and MBA to I-banking….the average joe/sally does not know anything…it includes…wealthy people who have inherited wealth and dont know what to do with it…i am just saying…please critique…cheers….
indian CFA (ICFAI) approved from any country ?
Vishnu, I believe both the global (U.S.-based) CFA and the “Indian CFA” are not licenses, but professional designations. That means they’re awarded and policed by professional or academic bodies – not by governmental agencies (in any country) that deal with official licenses.
Therefore, I think the question of whether it is “approved from any country” isn’t meaningful. Neither the U.S. nor, to my knowledge, other countries, have laws or governmental regulations that apply to individuals who claim either the global or the Indian CFA designation. That contrasts with, for instance, the Chartered Accountant (UK & Commonwealth) or CPA (U.S.) titles for accountants — those are both licenses, recognized by national or state governments.
For the CFA mark, “approval” boils down to how much acceptance and respect the designation enjoys among employers in various countries. My understanding is that any cachet the Indian CFA has is limited to India itself… while the charter conferred by the CFA Institute is respected by employers the world over.
I am pursuing my MBA in finance and I want to know about the options which CFA offers me for jobs in Singapore/Europe.
I have a Bachelor in Business Administration with major in Accounting and Finance from Athens University of Economics and Business and next year i will sit for the CFA level 1. I am interested to work in investment banking after completing the level 3. Should i have MBA to get a job in I-B? Are enough the BBA and the CFA? Thanks!
I have completed my CFA and now with the economy a little slower I am interested in pursuing my MBA. I live in Canada and have spoken with the recruiters from the top 5 programs here and they all respond very well to someone with a CFA, Having a CFA does make it a lot easier to get into a good business school, and the ROI is huge because it costs so little. However you do have to factor in the time cost as you will spend close to or over a 1000 hours studying for the program, and I passed all three exams in a row in Dec-Jun-Jun the fastest route possible ( I also had absolutely no finance background but quite a bit of banking experience). The MBA will provide you something the CFA never will, if you go to a top 20-30 MBA program you will have job interviews when you are finished and they will do whatever they can to place you in a position. In the CFA program you look great with the letters but you are on your own. So do a top 20 MBA if you can, especially for sales and trading or IB, but if you cant get into or afford such a program do the CFA.
I am currently working as senior software engineer in IT industry. I have about 8 years of experience in IT and a Masters from US university. I have always been interested in the Finance sector, mainly stocks, mutual fund analysis and Investment banking. I keep on reading analyst reports , watch a lot of TV shows about stock analysis etc .. Of late, though I have been thinking about making a career change from IT to Finance. I am prepared to take CFA exam, if needed, or at least the charter piece but I just wanted to get some thoughts about possible options. It’s pretty much clear that I have to take an entry level job but will the companies think that I am too old to make the switch and can’t really be molded. Also, is there any way for me to leverage on my IT & Project Management experience and grow into Finance industry after spending some time at an entry level position.
Btw if you haven’t guessed yet, I am in mid 30s, 33 yrs to be exact !So do you guys think that I might have missed the bus already. I am open to other suggestions as well.
Thanks in advance. I Look forward to your expert opinions..
I belong to india working in a nationalised bank in india,does CFA enhances my career.?
I am a tech graduate, & working as a software engineer from last 6 years. I hav plans to switch to finance field from so many months, I am very curious to learn about banking & investment concepts & read related articles. I am even an AMFI certified mutualfund agent in India.
Now Like everyone, I am also not able to decide whether to seek a CFA -or-MBA?
Plz suggest me which of these will give better future prospects to my career.
I know exactly whats the difference between these two.
There is spelling difference between these two.
Great board ladies and gentlemen. Just a few points to make:
-For the last time the violin teacher cannot get a designation even if all three exams are passed. Years of investment management experience is required to get your charter in addition to passing the gruelling 6 hour exams.
-Please stop saying a CFA takes 250 x 3 hours and 2.5 years. Give me a break. If people stopped lying on the surveys we would find out it’s more like 400+ (x 3) hours and a couple or few failures in between making it 5 years + at best. Most people are working 50+ hour jobs and have families to feed before hiding in their cave to learn 3 hours of quant each night. The number that cruise through in 3 years with no other graduate degree is probably 10% or less.
-Have any of the CFA bashers read the curriculum? Have a glance at the 2500 odd pages which basically have to be memorized to have a shot at the exams.
-If you want to be in investment/asset management, risk management or research you will be required to pursue a CFA even with an MBA. The reverse is not required, ever.
-I agree if you are not top 25 MBA program then you have as good earning potential doing an MBA or CFA.
have done MBA(finance) and am currently working with one of the leading private banks in India. I have a dream to work as an investment banker. How would you recommend CFA programme can help me out?
Im a student registered for a BSc ACTUARIAL SCIENCE degree, but Id like to go the CFA route and not the fully fledged ACTUARY route. Can somebody please give me more insight as to whether what courses I need to take in the duration of my degree in order to be granted access into the CFA program.
I see this question all over the internet. While CFA versus MBA seems to be the most popular, it is followed closely by CFA versus virtually every other financial or business designation (CFP, CAIA, CPA, etcetera). I think sometimes candidates are so caught up with the question of which designation to pursue that they forget to actually study for any of them.
For details click on the link
http://www.finquiz.com/blog/2012/03/25/grudge-match-cfa-versus-mba/
I too have been told that the CFA and MBA go hand in hand but the CFA is essential for asset management. However, I find it hard to believe that it only takes at least 250 hours of studying and 3 three tries. I know people older than me for whom it has taken much longer and a few more tries.