UK
I got a chilling reminder this week of just how competitive things are in the job market at the moment.
Although I’m in a short-term position, I’m still applying for roles that are better suited to my long-term career aims. A headhunter sent me a job spec for a role in the structured credit risk team of a bank. It matched my skill set and experience very closely, and I encouraged him to put my CV forward. He told me that the role had been advertised for a week or so, but that he’d give me some feedback as to developments.
The feedback was rather alarming. For this single role, the client was sent 150 CVs and took 30 candidates to second interview for the position. This was before I even added my CV to the list.
I thought I was well aware of how bad things are, but the sheer scale of these number still came as a surprise. It underlines the challenge faced by those who are out of the market at the moment.
The ratio of applicants to opportunities also highlights the importance of having and using a network. With the numbers stacked against the applicant, the sensible solution is to try to leverage your network of contacts in the most effective way possible. This is something that I have been continuing to press forward with and it seems to be by far the best source of leads.
Meanwhile, I am being deluged with change of address e-mails as people switch from their @xxxxbank.com addresses to the @hotmail.com variety. This suggests the list of people wounded during the crunch is lengthening at an accelerating pace.
I’ve also noticed an increasing number of friends who are leaving the UK. A few have gone chasing the dream in Dubai and the Middle East, hoping to reinvigorate their careers on the back of the Emirates boom. I suspect that they may be just rushing from one bust to the next.
The short-term consulting position I’ve taken has reinforced the importance of keeping your market and product knowledge up to date. Over the past couple of weeks I’ve scratched my head over product-related queries that six months ago would have got a quick-fire answer: it’s amazing how easily these things slip.
As a result, I’ve spent any downtime dusting off my textbooks to re-educate myself on some of the basics that were worn away while I was out of the market. It’s been a good exercise and something I wish I’d been more diligent about while I spent so much time at home over the summer. With the level of competition for jobs at fever pitch, it will definitely pay to keep your knowledge as sharp as possible. You may only get one shot at showing it off.
Its pretty horrible out there. I’m one of the lucky ones with a pretty safe job in IB but I feel for anyone looking right now – chances of getting a job int he next 12/8 months look bleak.
Headhunter mate of mine mentioned every ad they place they are receiving hundreds of CVs and he’s having to tell some people honestly to forget ever working in the city again.
I wish everyone well in these strange times….!
I would seriously urge anyone who has the financial back up to re-train in something outside of finance altogether or take a break.
Its like banging your head off a wall at the moment. I get 100s of CVs a day and have literally nowhere to send them. For those who don’t have the financial backing to do that, good luck (i may be joining you on the dole soon)
How can you take a company seriously when they (supposedly) take 30 candidates to second interview stage.
There are a lot of candidates out on the market at the moment but for a company to act like that would make me question why they need to hire – the managers can’t be that busy if they can spend all that time interviewing!!
Law is a good option – by the time you have finished training in 2 years, the market will be on the way up again
Otherwise – the fact is that what goes down must come up etc – having been through 2001-2002 and seen some people leave and then kick themselves through 2003-2007, i would say remain calm.
There are enough people who want things to return to normal. It will happen.
There will come a point soon when people will realise that great numers of folks will have to leave the industry – redundancy payments are only designed to last for so long, 6 months being the average ( worked out in an earlier age whne there WERE jobs to go to).They are not compensation for the lost of your stellar career. The regulators will start demanding change in about 12 months time – the FSA has been hiring furiously (albeit at a glacial pace). In 18 months a tranch of new change demands will hit the industry on top of the normal stuff. Basel II will look like a baby in comparision. The question is, can the industry attract back people who have been forced into other industries? Will the industry be able to met the regulator’s change demands? Will the experience come back when it is most needed? Given the volume of redundancies, I reckon you have 3 months to get a job before most headhunters write you off as being stale. Tough, unprecedented times. If you have transferable skills, get outta Dodge now before it’s too late. If you were a trader, start learning to say “Big Issue, Big Issue” – not all jobs have transferable skills.
I had interviewed here. The manager was looking to add staff to cope with counterparty risk on exposures post-LEH & for some ad-hoc stress tests on assets. Excellent institution, but the role would have suited internal candidates, given the need to speak with 100+ individual teams. The role finally went to someone within the Bank. Surprised that managers even invite external applicants in priority to internal candidates in these times!!
fever pitch is right!
well it’s quite simple. people who have no qualifications (and you know who you are), get ready to say big mac supersize…
and also all the emerginc markets students, indians, chinese, please go back and look for jobs in your own countries. Europe is for europeans now
Well said Alan (!)… its people like you, with your negative outlook, that has ruined this economy.
Imbecile. These “emerginc markets students” (well done on the spelling as well) will contribute a lot more to this economy than the likes of you.
Alan does have a point though…since when did it become acceptable to replace UK job seekers with foreign (non-EU) job seekers in a recession?
I do not think if we should be sad by seeing the large no of CVs coming in and therefore make an assumption of the market situation. The important point is the no of relevant CVs out of those CVs and what value one has for the advertised job. We do advertise too and we also receive the large no of CVs but getting the relevant CVs is still hard (may be a bit easire than say a year ago.
Finance is a global business. It should not unreasonable to expect that people employed in finance will show leadership and not be constrained by xenophobia. Does Alan also want to stop the import of Chinese televisions, Australian grain and Zambian copper as well as skilled, able and energetic personnel from around the world who often serve this industry better than home grown or locally bred staff?
Alan, there’s a role to join the homeless “Stop the war in Iraq” camper on the greens opposite Westminster with a banner “Europe is for Europeans now”. Pays 30 quid a day should you be interested.
wow these discussions are really getting to gutter point…It’s true that crisis bring the worst out of people.
What’s the economic difference between a UK job seeker and a foreign job seeker?
Well times are tough and if europeans cannot find jobs then first priority for jobs must be for europeans. Sorry indians and chinese and others, but time to look for jobs in your own countries. We have plenty of home grown talent. Which included Indian original European passholders and other ethnic origin people who have european passports. The work permit system should be completely revamped and the HSMP cancelled to not allow any more foreigners easy access to European jobs
Equating TVs, Grain and copper to human beings makes you look foolish HH. Grain and copper don’t affect our society in quite the same way as human beings. Also, if we relaxed the immigration rules to attract and keep financ workers then surely it has to apply to workers in other industries too…just to be fair and equitable. U think we should change the entire social and ethnic structure of this country?
when the uk counter-part is less qualified and capable.
look, if you are any good (which i doubt) you will still find a job in this market, albeit harder.
someone who fears competition doesn’t sound very confident to me, and alan, based on your remarks you don’t sound very secure in yourself.
If non-EU people should ‘go home’, then all the foreigners living in Asia-Pacific should return to Europe/US
Agree with Alan – and I’m a British-born Pakistani. In a recession environment, when unemployment of British citizens is going to rise so drastically over the next couple of years, it makes zero sense to fill the very few gaps available with work-permit foreigners, when there’s plenty of perfectly capable laid-off Brits roaming the streets. Entirely appropriate to give British citizens (of any ethnicity) preferential treatment in London, and I very much hope the City does so!
Doesnt matter whether you are European or not, the industry always want s the best. Its just a metter of survival of the fittest. Must I mention a lot of people on the trading floor are chinese/Indian which explains what goes into deciding who gets the best jobs. Having worked in IB in a bulge bank I can say that most people in IBD are not british!!
I work at a firm where HSMP holders are used because they are a cheaper alternative; many are great, HOWEVER, in most cases they are not as good as equivalent non-HSMP staff, but that 10-15k reduction on the total comp wins the day. If you have rare(ish) skills then fine, but in my experience many firms just mop up overseas students desperate to stay in London. Many UK grads could do the same jobs;; HSMP does not equate to top level quals in my team.
jake, they would gladly go back, but the European or US company they work for has sent them there to get experience or become senior managers. In most cases they did not go to Asia -Pacific for economic opportunities.
Jake, this is what I tell my foreign candidates looking for roles in Asia-Pacific. Recently, I’ve been receiving loads of Cvs from UK and US. Unfortunately if you don’t have the relevant Asian working experience/knowledge of market here or Asian language skills, I am sorry but you’ll have to look harder in your own country.
it is not about my job security or lack of it. We need to protect europeans in this downturn and have a priority to employ european passport holders, regardless of skin colour, first. Non-EU passport holders, regardless of their skin colour, need to go home. don’t make this a race issue, this is a work permit issue and we need to review immigration policies and keep the non-europeans OUT of europe.
it’s that simple.
Alan and Saffer. You guys are outdated.
Do you even know how much the UK gains by trading wth India?. We buy your value added finished products at a high price and that creates mroe jobs here in the UK. If we were to stop buying products from you guys there would would be adverse repurcussions for the UK.
Also India is the second largest investor in the UK and the UK benefits more from its ties with India than most countries in the EU.
Also do not forget that some of the best talent in the UK is of Indian origin.
By the way Alan, what is your qualification?
to open minded. You need not worry about me, I am an alumni of one of the schools like Insead HBS and LBS. I am gainfully employed. The issue is that there is a over allocation of jobs to Indians everywhere in the world and now there needs to be a sensible rational allocation of jobs. Indians with EU nationality get to stay in Europe and Indians with No EU nationality need to find work in India. Since India is so growing surely you can find jobs in your own country. European jobs for European passport holders.
APac HH – Once all the non-europeans like the chinese and indians leave then there should be plenty of jobs for us EU people. Just keep doing a good job of hiring all the asians back in the Asia-pac region. Please go back home !
tellingtruth has hit the nail on the head. All the posters on here who advocate fair competition between non-EU and EU paasport holders either ignore don’t understand the little secret that most of the non-EU citizens intend to get UK permanent residency and the first step is HMSP. Employers know this full well and therefore can afford to hire and pay the non-EU citizens less than EU nationals. Why? Because the employer will dangle the carrot of sponsorship for permanent residency. In the meanwhile the employer gets to save costs by hiring the non-EU national and paying less.
aaarrrgghh the moaning continues…can we actually get someone intersting writing these columns for a change
Alan, the world is flat mate, regardless of your wishes!
Europe is for Europeans, London is for Londoners, Central London is for Central Londoners, Docklands is for Docklandsmen, EC4 is EC4ers ?
to Gulliver – you hit the nail on the head. And India is for indians and china for chinese.
Please go back home and work in your own countries? Is that so offensive ? Or maybe we should raise taxes even higher for non-Eu and make the permanent residency 15 years and completely abolish the easy access HSMP.
Alan, you’ve been awesome! So when are you making Home Secretary? Surely the country will benefit so much more from your thoughts if you’re gainfully employed in government rather than in a Bank. Throw in an independent Scotland while we’re at this subject of who should live and work where.
Alan. I am sure you have studied the concept of globalization in your MBA class. I am mentioning this since I beleive, if an American/Indian/Chinese or pygmie can do a task as good as an Euopean at alower cost, he would deemed to be more effeicent in the eyes of the employer. It would make perfect economic sense to hire the most “effecient” employee. If you disagree you need to rethink about what you studied at B- school, which I seriously doubt you did, else you would not be wasting your time and venting out your frustration on this useful site. It is just a matter of survival of the fittest ( and probably the most cost effective) in the current crisis.
Thank you.
Alan,
Your rhetoric is rightist balderdash. RE “I am an alumni of one of the schools like Insead HBS and LBS” it is quite sad that your outlook remains narrow in spite of your claim to have studied at such a reputed school.
Carrying forward your argument that labour should be local, shouldn’t multinational operations be prohibited as well ? No more Japanese Banks like Nomura in London etc ?
Alan. You’ve completely missed the point. The world is increasingly integrated and the best talent will get the best jobs. Only losers like you will moan. Even Barrack Obama said that kids in US will have to compete for jobs with kids in Beijing and Bangalore.
If India and China started using legislation to keep British goods out of their markets then that would be a serious problem for the UK.
Can you elaborate more on your education?.
Alan – are you Henry in disguise?
Braveheart – as an Englishman, I would welcome an independant Scotland, it’d be interesting to see how long it took you to come running back to us. Not long me thinks…
Well whatever digs you may have about HBS or any education aspect, the fact remains that – there are too many jobs that Indians are taking up in the world. Decent hard working americans, canadians, Europeans (who might be of indian origin) are being denied jobs because of excessive immigration. We need to cut down on immigration in a recession and maybe open the doors again in a boom time. But for now in a recession, people need to pay their mortgages and feed their kids.
Indians, please go home to india
at LBS, Insead and HBS, there is an over allocation of students who are indian anyway. Immigration for us in the west is a serious matter and I believe the doors are far too open and easy for indians and other countries to come to the west. Now that we are in a recession, we need to protect our own jobs and homes and mortgages
Alan. A parochial person like you needs some good education. Also why are you glossing over the fact that the UK gains so much by virtue of getting access to the huge Indian market and I reiterate that india is the second largest investor in the UK. Do you wish to have all the benefits without giving something in return?
Like it or not the world is so very integrated nowadays that cross border flow of goods, services and manpower is irreversible.
Rest I leave to your not so sound judgement.
Alan. These students are there by virtue of thier own merit. And do not forget that they pay hefty fees to obtain the education. If the seats are taken up by meritorous students then why are you complaining?
Carlos, It is rather comical to read a comment which implies that any Scot / Scotland would ever “come running back”. England has piggy-backed on Scotland’s resources and industry long enough now.
An independent Scotland would develop & sustain far a more efficient economy than a Scotland that is burdened with the English people, as would it direct Scottish resources toward the betterment of the Scottish people.
haha, Scottish patriots crack me up.
Any votes for Edinburgh as the new economic capital of the UK?!
Alan is insecure that his job is going to go to a more qualified, more intelligent foreign national. and his barely suppressed racism doesn’t belong in this forum
“Suppressed racism”…You’ve got to me kidding me. There are QUITE OBVIOUSLY far too many foreign workers in the UK, in particular London, taking up jobs that British workers should being doing in the first place. It’s globalization/multiculturalism that has made this mess in the first place, with politically correct attitudes allowing the situation to get far worse. I was born in the UK, educated here, and white – why the HELL should my job be given to some Eastern European who has difficulty finding his way on the tube.
Of course we should restrict immigration to the UK, we need quality control, I don’t want to take orders from some sweatshop in Saigon, and more importantly I’M NOT GOING TO! It’s high time that the Tories got back in and sorted this place out once and for all!!!
All of you who equate goods and services with people are missing the point. If you say that the Indian/ Chinese / Polish etc market should be open to UK goods…then by reasoned logic the UK market for similar products should be open to Indian / Chinese / Polish companies.
NOT…….UK market is open to Chinese goods, so the UK LABOUR market should be open to Chinese people. Doesn’t work that way I’m afraid.
hi alanis – not insecure at all. I will always have a job. What irks me is that in the USA, all the H1B visas are taken by indian outsourcing companies and there is a misuse of those visas. The USA Needs to ban those indian IT companies who misuse the visa and clamp down on this blatant abuses. Same in the UK, how many HSMP’s visas are actually for true talent? We need to protect our borders from this over allocation of white collar jobs to indian nationals. They need to go home to find work
I agree with christianald. During the boom years, everyone and his wife came here to find work. Now the bubble’s burst some of those people have commitments as they thought the goose was going to lay golden eggs forever.
Have you noticed the dozens and dozens of Indian ‘business’ students giving free papers all over London? Do you think they’ll be going back once their courses have done? Yeah, right. In finance and business there is an oversupply of people wanting to get into the City/Canary Wharf and this ‘racism’ will appear when certain types of people turn up for interviews. They’ll be treated very well, of course.
Has anyone ever wondered why so many Indians want to come to UK for work in finance? Why can’t India develop it’s own financial sector?
Ha, ha. Only in England would something like that be labelled “racism”, or some other nonsense. In fact, there are so many economic migrants now, when you go for job interviews they ask you if you have the right to work in the UK!!! Ha, ha, ha – it’s like going through passport control…
there is an over allocation of jobs in this country to indians. we need home office to check their statistics and not renew the work permits of these indians so that it will free up jobs for British people.
Also please cancel the easy access tier 1 visas and impose quotas. We can’t have all of india migrating to the UK now can we? Also we need to make sure that these people leave our shores when their studies are done and completed.
Having an economics degree let me explain. Companies hire cheaper, but less qualified foreigners, then externalise the costs (TB, housing, NHS, education) to the rest of society. People like Indians are also more compliant and accepting of poor conditions. Of course Robert Puttman has studied what a nigative effect etnic diversity has on society particularly those with lower IQs. Corporate fat cats win, society loses.
Nice try at intimidation PC crowd. British jobs for British people. Labour is on its way out.
Dear Alan,
Assume for a moment that you’re running an Emerging Markets Assets trading desk at a Bank, and have a few roles to fill – Quant / Traders & Sales
Indian/Chinese/Russian/Korean applicants (on average) score higher in financial math & computational skills, with a grasp of English just sufficient for math intensive roles. Many select themselves into quant / trading roles.
English/American/W-European applicants (on average) score higher in language & relationship/people skills. Many select themselves into sales / relationship roles.
Are you really sure that English nationals have the skills to competitively staff all the work that is run out of London ???
Alan, Christian, Ronny and Broker. Barring a few of you cynics nether the British govt nor the industry thinks like that. British institutions and Indeed British corporations lap up good candidates regardless of nationality. If an individual is a good student/performer then why are you guys complaining?
The HSMP is designed to allow foreign talent in areas where there is deemed to be a skill shortage and the British govt does that assesment not any foreign country.
What is your complaint then?
Also in educational institutions seats are taken up by foreign nationals as there are not enough local people applying.
Big Rob..in terms of both IQ and qualification you would not stand anywhere in comparision. And then you wonder……
There are lot of other mationalities in this country. The visibility of Indians is high because of their success. And that success is only by virtue of their effort and committment to their work and education. So do not complain.
And dear Big Rob, do not be under any false impressions that the conservatives will change the HSMP scheme. In fact the conservatives took up the case of the Indian doctors who were adversely affected by the labour judgement on the new HSMP scheme.
Having said all this, in my opinion, if the government thinks that certain sectors no longer need skilled resources from abroad then a clampdown on hiring in such sectors is justified.
Talking about Economics Big Rob the population of Europe and indeed UK is declining and it is very well known in Economics that you need a growing population to be able to support a vibrant economy. Now the huge economy that London is it just cannot do without resorting to immigration if it wants to continue to grow.
Also this immigration is being resorted to fulfill this shortage of manpower in the right age bracket. That is why you see so many points being alloted to the AGE criteria in the points based scheme.
And this is purely being done in the interests of the British economy.
This shows the quality of people like you..haven’t even done justice to your basic degree.
Pure and simple, it is a commonly held belief that Australians, for example, are prized over brits because of work ethic. I’d say Indians are even more so, due to their hard work ethic and acceptance of lower wages.
If the British teens stopped sticking each other on street corners and actaully worked in school for a few years, then the British population may be able to produce a generation that can fill some of these more professional roles. Until that happens though, most of them will be good for stocking shelves I’m afraid!
Andy, some of the most professional and efficient people I have worked with are local Brits however there aren’t too many of those around because as you rightly pointed out emphasis on higher education is almost non-existent in this country.
The Australian work ethic “belief” is basically because they haven’t developed other “soft” skills such as networking. Believe me, working with Australians, I have seen how lacking in social skills a lot of them are.
Andy, if we educated some of the brits to the level of internationally competitve professionals, maybe we won’t need immigrants? Do you think?
(Un)realist: No I would not hire the East Asian as I prize originality above all else. Westerners invent it East Asians merely tweek it. They don’t have the dynamism. I also have no time for quants, ten standard deviation events indeed, take an econ hstory course you big nerd. Back to the faculty for you.
Open (Close) minded: No actually there is a consensus in economics that immigration into hardworking high IQ Western societies is bad, see Borjas, Brimelow, Rubinstien etc.
Big Rob..maybe when the IQ of the immigrant is lower than the local population. Otherwise the host country will gain.
Also, why are you glossing over my other pertinent points.
Full marks indeed to the westners to have invented it. But ultimately growth is happening so fast that you need a lot more people to keep it going. Also please note my other point that not many people in this country pursue higher education and that is why the British have to rely on foreign brains.
No need to be derogatory towards quants, they make models that you will never be able to comprehend.
Alan, While you have a point, let me ask you this. If you lost your job (which is a matter of time in this market), you’ll probably look for another in Dubai. Out there they might take you on board for your perceived experience disregarding your complete lack of Arabic language skills. But using your rationale, you should not be offered a job there. Hence, you can then join the dole lines or go back to your own country. Arabic speaking Brits should, using your rationale, be offered any jobs to do with the Middle East, in London or in the Gulf. So apart from the Chinese and Indians, there are also other Brits out there from various ethnic backgrounds. This brings me to the article itself, and I agree with its author that competition is tough for any job even the so-called safe Middle East. So, Alan, I’m afraid even in a shrinking Dubai market you would not find a job when you lose yours soon.
Why be harsh on the foreign labour force when things go bad and when they do you kick them out of Europe and follow them to their countries to take their jobs, because that is were the growth is and you perceive yourself to be intellectually superior?
the point is : whether in Dubai or USA, Indians are taking a disproportionate amount of white collar jobs. Please go back home now ! Excess supply of anything is not good for the market. Would you not agree with that.?
I wonder what % of the British population would have enough points to get a VISA in the HSMP system?
Dear Alan,
“disproportionate” you said ?
Surely not, given India & China’s educated population, and the roles staffed by such talent in a world economy that depends on Ch-India’s markets for growth.
Surely not, given cross border acquisitions of corporations by cash rich Ch-Indian companies, and value creation by them (remember Jaguar, TATA, Lenovo ?)
Surely not, given the number of jobs created by Ch-Indian multinationals in Europe & USA.
70-80% of all roles in the GCC countries (from Oman via Dubai through Qatar to Saudi Arabia) are staffed by enterprising individuals from a very small state in India (called Kerala, also known for beaches, backwaters, rubber plantations, Yoga & Ayurveda).
GCC economies DEPEND on Indian resources for unskilled, blue & white collar jobs, without recourse to any other alternatives. The United States – Universities, Silicon Valley & Wall Street NEED Ch-Indian entrepreneurial talent.
You’re but a frog in a well, Alan, afraid to skill up and compete. Try your hand at politics, of the rabble-rousing variety.
Alan & Open minded,
Go do some gainful work chaps. Instead of writing drivel & wasting everyone’s time on efinancialcareers discussion boards.
LLC. I view your point constructively and this is going to be my last post on this subject. However the comments that Alan has made are purely racist in natue. I hope you can see that.
to open minded : I said earlier I have no issues with any ethnic origin or any race – provided they have EU nationality. This is a work permit issue and these workpermits should be not renewed or cancelled to allow EU passport holders to hold those jobs. Could be a british indian or a british chinese who cares? This is a workpermit issue
Alan, Open minded,
Points well made, passionately defended, extensively discussed. Many thanks. Please rest your respective cases now.
What utter drivel…