UK
Wall Street and the Square Mile might be kicking investment bankers into the street, but India is taking them on by the team-load.
Sourabh Chattopadhyay, director of recruiters Options Group in Mumbai, says local players are competing for people with international banks: “Some international banks have lost key people in the last year and must bring in new talent to be competitive. Similarly, local players like Kotak, Enam and Edelweiss have been really building their investment banking platforms.”
UBS is looking to double its investment banking team in India; Citigroup has hired an Indian MD in preparation for an expansion; Merrill’s John Thain has said he wants to up the bank’s Indian operations; Goldman is launching new services; and even Dresdner is getting in on the act.
Hiring is aggressive, poaching is rife, and banks are lifting whole teams out of competitors, Chattopadhyay says.
Generous payouts are encouraging some Indian bankers, who might otherwise have worked in London or New York, to consider their options. Milan Sharma, a Masters in Finance student at London Business School and former assistant vice president in Axis Bank’s i-banking division, says he ideally wants to work in the City, but has already had a number of offers back in India.
“At a typical base of $100k, it’s not great money by Western standards, but the cost of living in Mumbai is considerably lower than in London,” he says.
Indian firms still opportunistically tap UK talent, but don’t expect to be treated like royalty, says Ronesh Puri, managing director of the New Delhi office of search firm Executive Access.
“Previously there was a dearth of good talent locally, and there was a premium paid for Western experience, but that’s no longer the case.”
M&A pay in top-tier Indian investment banks
Analyst (1st-3rd years)
20k-32.5k (base), 25k-40k (bonus)
Associate (1st-3rd years)
35k-50k (base), 30k-65k (bonus)
Vice president
62k (base), 100k-138k (bonus)
Director
75k (base), 200k-250k (bonus)
Managing director
100k (base), 300k-400k (bonus)
Source: The Options Group (original figures in Indian rupees, converted at 1 = INR79.85)
These numbers work with local experience & local education. One needs to compete with grads from the Indian Institutes of Management for these positions. London experience doesn’t usually carry much water in Mumbai.
i come from india, and work here as fund management analyst and my friends work for major firms in mumbai. Unfortunately these figures speak false, they have to unclude things rent,cort of living and etc which will be sky rocketting(dont forget pollution levels, burecrausy, corruption)with the experience you gain in Lodnon, one is better off to singapore,or even hongkong. its understood, with years of experience you gain here. its not a big deal to get that kind of salary in india. Regarding competing with local guys(language could be a problem as india has a lot of regional feeling and will remain forever)most of the local guys intern in sinpaore, other neighbouring countries and then start of as analyst. I am talking in general not particularly Investment banking.
PS: my opinions are my own
there is no point making statements like london experience doesn’t carry much weight in india. Why do so many indians come to Uk and USA for education?
I’ve interacted at senior levels with many finance cos in India and “anonumus” is correct – local work experience is vital. Maybe 5 years ago someone from London could go to an Indian institution at a similar level to what they had in London, but now the IBs are savvy when recruiting. Foreign work experience is very helpful, but local knowledge/contacts is even more important.
If one is willing to take a backstep for a year, build up local knowledge and combined with international work experience/education move on, that is a winning proposition – but who is willing to take that step back and risk? But, over a ten year period the likelihood is that more money (salary/bonus and investment opportunities) is to be made in India than most other financial centres.
And yes Bombay is very expensive. I calculated that my cost of living would go UP and quality of life would go DOWN (I did real calculations based on the lifestyle I lead now and would lead in Bom).
You are talking of a trend which was significant 3-4 years ago. The trend is reversing and there is a reduction of indians coming to UK and US to study. Hence, there is no significant advantage of work experience in the West. It might work against the candidate as employers in India are more demanding than their western counterparts.
This good news who ewants to back home as senior pro
Relevant skills for Banking jobs paying these numbers in Mumbai – evidence of local deals, local contacts, local tombstones, local networks, local languages, local education, local track record –> Why would someone in India hire redundant ABS bankers from London {Starbucks doesn’t compete with local Indian coffee either, & most ppl pack lunches to work, so no sandwich making jobs }
Edu: Good schools in India {IIM, IISc, IIT} admit just about 200-300 per school .. with 100x applicants .. schools in the US/UK have courses sized to demand/ability to pay .. most education is local to a large extent, leading to local employment
this must be good news. All the indians studying in UK should be expected to leave back for india now and not take up jobs in this country.
we should expect to see more of a true mix at places like LBS which for some bizarre reason seem to be bursting at the seams with indian nationals only. I look forward to the days that LBS become truly international again rather than full of indian students
Hard Truth : Standard of living is still considerably low in Mumbai but it is improving as people of Mumbiai understood that they have to keep pace with other financial capitals of the world. Salaries are paid good in some particular work areas but it’s also true that local knowledge is letant quality recuiter will consider. Western experience is no more considered as in Mumbai they already have many people with western work experience.
Universal Truth : Why Indians come to UK or USA (or any western European countries for that matter) ? It’s not because they want to but it’s because they want to make money (or capital) in short time. How ? Because of exchange rate of stirling and dollars against Indian rupees. Whatever they send back to India it becomes almost 40 times (USD) or 79 times (GBP) more. This thing attracts almost all Indians to work in the west and easy way to start doing it is through study here first.
I think I have answered steve and alen’s arguments against Indians.
Alan/Steve – dudes, learn to compete. and pick up some mandarin/hindi/arabic while you have the time, just in case you need to catch that flight to Dubai/Mumbai/Shanghai.
An isolationist mindset hasn’t served many societies well. Economics 101 if you’re at LBS.
I would not agree to te fact that LBS has only Indians. As a matter of fact Indians are 15% of the batch size. So saying that LBS is not international is not at all true and more over people should understand that admissions at LBS are based on merit and no other criteria and this is the raeson why it is one of the best schools in the world.
To Steve, Hedge Funds
May be you are feeling a bit unsecure right now… and I hope your job is not under attack here from an Indian – thats y there is a stink in your msg. I suggest you better concentrate on your work and not waste your time.
Steve, does the Indians working or studying in the UK bother you in anyway?
Far too many Cowboys and Indians in the UK for my liking.
Dave, Alan, Steve, Anon, Local AAAce, good morning to all of you! Were you born in the 1700s & remained in a coma until yesterday? Can we please discuss the contents of this article instead of sundry topics & abstruse opinions on changing demographics?
Many of my Indian classmates at my programme came to UK because the school told them to come over here and even if it costs a lot of money, there was no problem since the school had plenty of alumni contacts and investment banks/consulting companies do come to campus. These students found a very different story. It was not that easy to secure a position in uk. A lot of them will continue to try and secure something to recoup the cost. They said that they would not have bothered to come if they were given an honest picture. This is same situation for indian doctors sitting for the overpriced PLAB exam and then having to pay for an short term internships to try and secure a post graduate seat. My question – why isn’t there honesty in these instituitions? There are 90 students in my class of which there are 5 british,6 EU and 18 indians. School officials have said that if they considered just on merit and gmat score, majority of the students would be indian. It will not be international program. I wager that if international students decide not to study here – the british university system would collapse. Give an honest picture and less indians will come.
I am totally agree with indian mba student. I had similar experience after finishing my MBA. I couldn’t find a proper job for 2.5 years after my MBA. University gave me absolutely false picture of the UK job market in it’s glossy catalogue and animaed website. Majority of the international students are from India so if they stop coming to UK then British universities will be closed. Now there is a real urgent need for a campaign to stop Indian students to come to the UK for studies with false hopes for the bright future.
Truth is Indians try harder, value education more and probably are more intelligent than a lot of the hooray henrys entering banking nowadays!
not at all insecure. All indians who don’t UK are welcome to go back to fantastic india. You have your own universities which are good, so nobody is forcing you to come here. At least give respect to a country once you are here. If you are so proud about your own country, then stay there and get educated there and get jobs there.
my job is not under attach from an indian. I am front office person and have no such worries. It’s really very simple. If you don’t like the UK and prefer India and think Uk experience won’t help you in Mumbai, then by all means, please go to Mumbai. Why waste your time in London? Nobody, and I mean nobody is asking you to stay here, not for one minute. UK universities don’t need Indians, we do very well because our universities are world class and we will always have students fighting for places.
Steve – it’s understandable that you feel insecure, but you got to realise that London will attaract the best people from around the world as long as the opportunity is there and as long as the UK government does not restrict movement of talent into the country. Time will come when you will be told to go back to whatever town you come from or your folks come from. Who needs you in London anyways ?
@Steve…
We do pay heed to the fact that we need to pay respect to the country where we stay.. But u really need to get ur facts right.. I studied at LSE … and most of them hold world tours almost twice a year to get international students.. in case u havent noticed… most of the national and EU students are on student loans, and the universities make a loss of almost close to 500 quid per student per annum.. thats why these glossy pamphlets are printed and distributed.. International experience is more or less an opportunity to broaden your horizons, but then it depends on individual perspective, whether they want to come back or not. There are plenty who want to stay there, and do so… but many come back and get mediocre jobs, so the education is not as world class as u think
@Steve
Indians take their decisions themselves and don’t need any one’s guidance or or whteva..
If u would have told this earlier that you are a front office person; this discussion wudnt have lasted this long….
Steve,guess you’r making this into a mud slinging forum instead of discussing the topic.Just to make you aware of the fact that a large portion of graduate colleges in UK earn their revenues from overseas students and majority of them come from India & China. In this globalised 21st century, its important to have cross cultural experience with increased tolerance levels. Your comments are immature
I am the real Steve, the one posting messages here WAS in the front office and not IS in the front office. He drives Buses for Arriva from Stockwell to Aldwych, night shifts on weekends only. Available for day jobs as well if you have any.
Responding to Steve’s comments. I have every respect for British people and UK, I just don’t respect dishonesty. As to why Indians come here – it is to broaden their exposure. In some fields and industries, the international experience is irrelevant, but in others, it is important. Having lived in many countries, I have noticed that there is always something one country can learn from another. As to world class universities – my programme was considered one of the top in UK and world rankings. However having studied in 5 countries, the quality of teaching is about the same as all the other institutions I have studied with its own strengths and weaknesses. I have no regret studying here – the internationalness (94% were non UK)of the programme was incredibly wonderful, enriching and valuable for a global career. It was the key point of the programme. I would not have add that opportunity if I studied in India or for that matter in US.
It’s not about Steve feeling insecure as I see it. He’s quite right to say that you should respect the country you’re in! There’s no point in travelling all the way to the States/UK only to slag them off once you’ve got your money – you just turn into an annoyance rather than an asset. No one cares where you’re from as long as you work hard and contribute your bit to whichever society.
I can see lots of indians getting touchy about my comments. If you honestly think UK education is not world class (and it is world class, of course), then as I keep saying, please feel free not to come to UK anymore. We will always have people fighting to come study here. As for people on grants, well they do pay taxes so there is no free ride for anyone. I am not at all insecure about my prospects in my country. I am not living in india and badmouthing india at the same time. Once you are here, respect this country, and it’s people and enjoy yourself. It’s such a shame to come here only to badmouth in a false sense of perception that UK education and experience is anything but world class. And if you don’t think so, then India is growing and you are welcome to get educated there and find jobs there.
Uk universities will market themselves just like any company will. Just because Coca cola advertises globally does not mean anyone is forcing you to drink the product? Simple enough, right? Nobody forced you to come study in this country?
hmm,,,funny discussion.There seems to be a feeling of ‘we are smarter than Indians and the most we will agree to is tht they are our equal’ out here. It’s the same feeling tht a ‘boss’ has. Grow up, look at the housing crisis which IS snowballin and IS goin to hit the US economy and take London with it as well ;). Don’t believe me, wait and watch….you can’t have 25 yrs of stupid spending and then expect nothing to happen. As for why Indians and Chinese and other ppl who settle in US/UK go there,,,,1. The work hours are less, stayin in office after 6 is overtime. 2. Better quality of living, clean roads, easier to shop etc etc,,,,the developed world splurged when it did and they r there to enjoy the fruits. 3. International exp, etc etc(u know this one!) As for the current condition: Indians in US have the highest salary among any ethnic group,,,go check it out!! and remove those bloody glass ceilings you have and you shall have them ruling the world ,,,,talkin abut equality, have the guts to be equal and feel equal,,,,and tht means accepting tht one can be better or worse than u,,,,and decidng tht not based on the caste , creed of color!!
Indians rule the world… You guys are really funny. India will never rule the world and the only reason is that India is living off what the western world is outsourcing to India. The real you come to uk and USA to study is because the reality is that Indian education isn’t upto global standards. There are so many IIM’s at LBS and at top US universities. Do you see any Harvard Grads and LBS grads going to study at IIM? Of course that will never happen. Most of indian education is parrot style rote based memory based repetition without much analytical thought anyway
Alan, you’re mistaken. Harvard/Wharton/Yale have great relationships with Banks/Professional Services firms in India. Several students intern & pick up full-time positions in the region. Several Indian students from the IIMs & IITs pursue higher education at Harvard/Wharton etc. to head on to a career in teaching/pure research. Academia from US/European schools collaborate to teach & jointly publish papers based on topics in the Indian/Asian region, with faculty from the IIMs/IITs. Curriculum/entrance exams for the IIMs/IITs is quantitative/applied rather than concept repetitive. Most students in the IIMs have 95th percentile GMAT scores.
India is UK’s third largest investor, and has close interlinked business relationships with W Europe/Russia (ex Soviet Union)/China. UK/US education helps create talent to work/further such business relationships.
Knowledge/Process Outsourcing is a v tiny proportion of Indian GNP. Automobiles, Pharma, Media, Steel & other core businesses are well developed.
Read your facts up!!!
Dear Alan, quotes from IIM grads who did another MBA from Harvard, Wharton, LBS etc
“After IIM, the MBA was a joke. I was in the middle of my class at IIM. I was in the top 1 percentile at my US college”
“I needed a degree coz people don’t recognize IIM brand. They need a name they can feel secure with and thus a degree from Wharton”
“All I got out of my second MBA were contacts”
As for grads goin to IIMs, one student joined an IIM last year. He dropped out coz of the academic rigor and the culture shock coupled with living under fans in the hot Indian summer. He went back to do a PHD in philosophy.
A 99.0 percentile in CAT will not get you ANY interview calls from the top three IIMs. In addition, you need 95 percentile minimum in each of the three sections.
As for faculty, about 1/3rd of the faculty also teach at schools like Harvard, Wharton, Kellogs, LBS etc.
~Wait for the crash. It’s coming sooner than you think if it isn’t already there. All your cockiness will go out of the window.
~~Let me not start on the IITs. Entree into IIMs is a cakewalk and either you have it or you don’t. IITs are a different and a much more difficult ball game.
Indian education isn’t upto global standards. There are so many IIMs in LBS and in top US universities…. indian system is a parrot rote system and no analytical thought. Ummm contradictory statements, no analytical thought here. If their standards are poor, how do so many of them get into universities here?? How can they cope? Do you have a drop out rate among indians students – i bet it is marginal. As to the coca cola analogy – well Universities should not be compared to companies, one operates on a profit model and the other one is financed by tax payers. Still a better analogy to use would be tobacco companies who lied for many years and then finally got sued.
If the western world crashes (and it won’t) then I guess India will go back to extreme poverty, because as I said, we in the western world are feeding india through outsourcing. India does not interest me at all, least of all Indian education. Your IIT’s and IIM are just wannabe insitutes and are no match for the real thing, ie HBS, LBS, MIT, Caltech, Oxford, Cambridge etc. Remember that BMW and MERCEDES are the best and original, and can never, and never be competed by the likes of TATA, Daewoo. No sensible western person will ever buy a Jaguar again now that TATA owns it.
Ha ha someone is insecure its obvious and its also obvious that “The Loser” is ignorant. Its one thing saying “I do not know” and another saying I can not accept. Some of these insecure, ignorant people will fade away.
The truth about IIM and IIT’s is difficult to accept for some “Steves” of the world. As for India being fed by UK and US ha ha ha ha Joke of the century……Don’t forget Outsourceing keeps some high paying jobs in UK/US and keeps companies running, who keep paying taxes. What about all those Indian who run their businesses and pay taxes, Indian Employees who work hard here and pay taxes.
But “Steves” of this world are also ignorant of some locals who live out of social security ? So who is feeding who ?
Steve, you sound like a BNP activist and Iam not sure why any bank would hire a person like you who is not able to think rationaly due to race bias. Can you please let every one know the name of your good employer. Thanks
ben, talk about analytical reasoning. I studied at LBS and I can assure you that brits are less then 5% of the class and always at the bottom of it…cause they are too drunk to think..
Steve, grow up and learn to include the new world. And learn to compete + read up Economics 101 while you’re at it – stuff like budget deficits and financing such deficits.
Have you stopped drinking English tea because Tata owns Tetley? Or stopped buying Ford cars because they’re made in & exported from India and not Detroit, or stopped using steel because it comes from Tata Steel?
Stop living in the 1800s grandpa, the world has changed while you were in a coma.
This article was about moving to Mumbai, where the jobs are.
Funny, I also studied at LBS and can assure you that brits were not the 5% of the bottom class. In fact the behaviour and demeanor of the indians there really made me think whether LBS had done its admissions process properly. You can along thinking you know a lot with your great accents and way of thinking, and its surprising you have such a poor respect for this country. As I said, if you think a crash is coming, then why are you here in the west? Better go home? Either stay here and respect this country, or go back home. Don’t badmouth UK and don’t try and pretend that India is good for anything else other than outsourcing. Know your place in the world, especially the western world which you are here to apparently be a part of. I really do hope INSEAD, HBS AND LBS DO start reducing the number of indian students and make it a truly international class.
May be this is not the forum to ask a personal question,but since I am desperate for answer let me go ahead. I have been working as a scientist in nuclear physics, work involves quantitative analysis, mathematical modeling, have done monte-carlo simulation, written thousands of line of code in C and C++, used Perl for scripting, cvs for repositories, currently learning GUI developement using GTK , Tcl/TK and VB6. I have been trying to get a job in finance market, but dont know how to go about it in India. I worked for 2 yrs in US as a scientist, given interviews on C++, thats what they were requiring from me, but I dont know what I need to be considered for quantitative analyst job / research jon i finance modeling. I would appriciate if any one can guide.
I have moved here from NYC and let me tell you that the quality of life here sucks compared to the US or India. The people here are arrogant and ill-educated. They still living in the glory of yesteryears – not realizing that the glory days are over. Now it is the time for Indians/Chinese to rule the world.
True, we Indians should show respect to this country but at the same time, should not balk down from pointing deficiencies as well.
@steve- nobody is perfect but at least can try to listen to constructive criticism and act upon it.
Ajay
@Ajay —> if the quality of life doesn’t compare to USA or to India, then why are you still here? Nobody is forcing you to stay here. Go back home, wherever that is, certainly not uk. You are one of the hypocrites or what we call “the enemy within” asians who show disrepect to our country but are amongst the most desperate to obtain our HSMP visas and the first in line to apply for british nationality.
What a bunch of weak minded hypocrites. maybe china will rule the world one day, but looking at how you think, India will never be able to do that.
An indian criticising UK (especially one who wants a job here rather than being a man and going back to your own country) is like a little fly pointing at a brand new Boeing 777 and saying I can fly faster than you can.
Indians rule the world? you guys can’t even get jobs in your own country, forget about ruling the world
I am not here by choice. I was sent by my NYC team to fix problems created by some of smarty-people like you here.
If I had any inkling about the current state of this city then I would have turned down the request to come here on a three-months assignment. If get a chance, I would be the first person to take flight out of this place.
ajay
we will be more than happy when you leave our country.
Steve, we’re waiting for you to join us back at work. Please stop staring at efinancialcareers now.
Steve, rather than descending into a xenophobic diatribe, know that India is UK’s second largest investor. The British work permit regime is in no small measure responsible for the inward flight of talent. Yobs like you do not augur well for Britain’s future.
Bring back the Empire !!
That’s all folks, see you again, same time, same place, next week, on efinancialcareers.com
Thanks everyone for the great entertainment.
Read this entire forum and could not resist but add my input to put Steve in his place..for starters, I got my undergrad in the UK and was offered an i-banking role in barclays right away with HSMP stamped on my passport – please note they wanted me (not the other way around)…
however, after spending 3 yrs studying in the UK and coming across unaware, antequated people like you who do nothing but bask in the ridiculous glory of your ancestors or drink beer to get rid of the depression caused by the ridiculous UK weather, I decided to let go of the offer and the freaking HSMP stamp caring two hoots about it…
result – your country lost out to other more evolved and developed countries on good talent…I have now spent 4 yrs in the US without complaints and will soon return to India wiser, smarter and definitely more aware than people like you who give their county a bad name because people like you were born rascist and cant help but let it come in the way of your own progress.
flatten your ego and rise to understanding the dynamics of the new world – maybe there is hope for you and your country then!